my new hawken

[shortbow]

I just today got in a super nice Hawken rifle made by the seller back in 1982. It is as nice a ml rifle of this type as I've ever seen and I'm going to try to figure out how to post pics so I can show it all to you.

But in the meantime, I have a couple of little questions concerning it's PC authenticity for the pre1840 Western fur trade.

The gun was built from original Hawken shop blue prints, but the maker included a "lollipop" tang sight, and the calibre is .58.

Did the brothers ever include this type of sight as well as making a gun of a bore this large? Also, the stock is a super high grade of tiger-stripe maple. What percentage if any of their production used this wood?

Thanks much.

 

[hoochiepapa]

I've been to the Mountain Man Museum in Pinedale, Wyoming, and they have there a fullstock, striped maple Hawken in a large caliber. I couldn't handle it, so I don't know the caliber. If they won't accept your rifle, well if it were me, I'd go elsewhere. :thumbsup: Post pics.

 

[BrownBear]

I don't recall the name of the original owner and I haven't seen it, but apparently there's a known and documented original Hawken in 62 caliber. Can't say about the sight.

I have to pipe up on 58 cal Hawkens in general though. I have one made by GRRW in the 70's and it is pure joy. Mine is heavy with a 36" barrel tapered from 1 1/8" to 1", but due to the taper it handles surprisingly well and is accurate as a snake bite. Best of all, due to the weight it's downright pleasant to shoot with it's favorite load of 120 grains of 2f under a PRB. I've taken it to 140 grains and it's similarly accurate and recoil isn't bad, but I just don't need the flatter trajectory or any implied extra power for my deer ranges. Might be different if I took it for moose.

In contrast I'm working with an older Investarms 58 cal "Hawken" right now having a 15/16" barrel 28" long. It weighs less than my 54 cal Lyman GPR and will certainly get your attention as charges go up. I haven't shot it alongside the GRRW yet, but as far as my shoulder can tell 80 grains of 2f is recoiling more than 120 grains in the GRRW. The Investarms is a joy to carry compared to the GRRW, but the light weight comes at a price if you're going to shoot it much. If yours falls in the 9-10# range, I suspect it's going to hit the compromise between easy carry and comfortable shooting.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Sorry if I'm getting wordy. I also think I remember Track of the Wolf won't sell a fancy maple stock to you if you're building a large caiber Hawken. I may be mistaken, but I don't think so.

 

[Rifleman1776]

Sorry if I'm getting wordy. I also think I remember Track of the Wolf won't sell a fancy maple stock to you if you're building a large caiber Hawken. I may be mistaken, but I don't think so.

That's weird. Why would they care?
What the customer wants is all that counts.

 

[Bill Hall]

It's been my understanding that a percussion Hawken would only be found right at the tail end of the fur trade era. There's not alot known about Hawkens before that period, virtually no surviving examples today. There are, however, many references to Hawkens being used during the main timeline of the fur trade, just anybody's guess as to what they looked like. Also, Hawkens were expensive and not as popular during the fur trade as movies and other stories might have us believe.

I've yet to see any original Hawken with fancy wood throughout. Mostly plain wood, or a few with spotty striping here and there along the stock. But I AM going to that museum Mike spoke of, to see that fully striped Hawken before I die!

I really can't comment on the type of sight used, or the size of the bore. I believe most Hawkens were around .53 caliber, but these are from surviving pieces. As already stated, there are some examples of larger bores, so who knows how many bigger bores just didn't make it to our time.

It sounds like you've got a beautiful, well crafted rifle! I'm going to go a step further than Mike and suggest you tell the nit-pickers to put their comments where the sun don't shine (but that's just me :surrender: ). And we would all love to see some pics of that Hawken! Congrats. Bill

 

[Bill Hall]

double post-oopsies

 

[hoochiepapa]

Bill, that Hawken is green.

 

[Bill Hall]

Must have used green wood. :rotf: :rotf: Bill

 

[shortbow]

Thanks a lot for your input gentlemen. I'm not one of those who thinks every trapper in the mountains had a Hawken, but this one is so nice and so well priced that I just couldn't pass it up. Also, plenty of geezers made plains rifles so who's to say somebody somewhere didn't build one like this.

I still haven't figured out how to do pictures, but in the meantime:

The gun was made in 1982, has a Sharron barrel, l&r lock and triggers. The patch box, cheek piece inlay, escutcheons and pipes are were made from scratch from German silver. The patch box is spring loaded and opens from the top of the butt plate metal via a tiny pin. Barrel inlays of sterling silver at breech and muzzle. The tang sight was also made from scratch and is elevation adjustable only via a knurled nut, and can be easily dismounted. The rear sight is a fancy long style with elevator. Wood to metal fit looks like it was done by Purdey.

All in all if it does the job as a Hawken clone, it looks to me like it would be from the later period, but I'm hoping I won't get thrown off the grounds if I show up at a shoot or rondy.

Barrel is thirty six inches and the guns weighs ten pounds which for my scrawny old-coot build is quite a handful. After handling it my flint fowler feels like a toy.

Don't know how it shoots yet but the gun is pristine and the bore has nice deep grooves for prb so I'm expecting good results.

If I ever get it up here in pictures I'm going to ask what folks think its value is 'cause I think I finally made a really good deal on a gun. :grin:

 

[Herb]

Yes, Hawken rifles were made with lollipop tang sights, in large caliber, and very fancy. See page 85 of the book "Steel Canvas" by R.L. Wilson. This one by S. Hawken has the lollipop sight and a checkered semi-pistol grip stock. Kit Carson had a .69 with tang mounted peep sight, very heavy, can't find my reference now. James D. Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West", volume III, shows this rifle (I think) on page 391, which same rifle is at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center. I'd say if someone says your rifle is not PC, he doesn't know much about Hawkens. Few people do. I personally don't know enough about them to be expert, but I have seen a couple dozen originals and photos of maybe that many more.

 

[shortbow]

Thanks a lot, Herb, that's very helpful. Will try to find a copy of that Wilson book.

 

[LaBonte]

What Herb said with one caveat - there are post 1840 Hawkens, including those made by Sam post 1849 that are technically not PC for pre-1840, but in the majority of cases no one will say yea or nay at modern day rendezvous or re-enactments.

As for caplocks being late RMFT period - yes and no - the flinters were most popular pre-1840 , but there is plenty of documentation for caplocks whether they be Hawken or others starting in the late 1820's. As fo the Hawkn being more expensive - again yes and no. While they cost more than most of the eastern made brass mounted trade rifles, when Hawkens are compared in price to the Henry made steel/iron mounted rifles the price is equivalent. And even then the price for a Hawken is at most the price of a couple more plews (or about the cost of 4-5 cups of trade whiskey) more expensive than the brass mounted trade rifles - not really all that more expensive. FYI - most of the brass mounted trade rifles that went west were supplied by the Companies to their employees and not exactly traded per se although the cost came out of their pay.
On the other hand the Hawken was a better overall quality gun, there are in fact several period documents noting the some times poor quality of the eastern made rifles. Guess it all depends on what one considered their life was valued at and whether their gun or a few pints of whiskey was more important :hmm:

As for big bores and fancy wood - the rifle built by Sam in 1822 for General Ashley had a 42" .66 caliber barrel and there is a later period Sam Hawken made rifle in 70 caliber - see The Peacemakers by RL Wilson.
50-54 were the most common bores for the Mtn Rifles, but bigger bores can be documented as can fancy wood, especially on the 1840 era rifles. The Bros Hawkens could and would make pretty much fancy up a rifle as much as you like - one built in 1836 has all Sterling Silver mounts and even some mother of pearl inlays.

 

[shortbow]

Thank you Chuck. I just got back here after a google trip and there were definitely plenty of high grade maple stocks on Hawkens as well as, like you say, uptown silver mountings and such.

Lots of variations were made by the brothers as well as by Sam alone.

As to the comment above that TOTW won't sell you fancy maple if you're going to build a Hawken, that's not correct. They sell a "Bridger Hawken" parts kit in which is provided a pretty flaming bit of maple.

At the end of the day though, this rifle of mine is pretty much for sure a late period Sam-style affair with the tang sight and long/elevating rear sight.

I can see too that the Hawken story is very fascinating and many sided. I even found one rifle with a rapid tapering damascus barrel. Also a smoothy. Pretty darned interesting.

 

[tiger955]

One small problem with that rifle you may want to be aware of... Though I am no expert, and not well traveled to many rondys, the couple clubs I have shot with will not allow you to compete with a tang or peep sight. Whether it is PC/HC or not, they require open sights only to keep things fair in competition. I believe you stated that the tang sight comes off easy so that should not be an issue with the adjustable barrel sight.

 

[hoochiepapa]

Thank you Chuck. I just got back here after a google trip and there were definitely plenty of high grade maple stocks on Hawkens as well as, like you say, uptown silver mountings and such.

Lots of variations were made by the brothers as well as by Sam alone.

As to the comment above that TOTW won't sell you fancy maple if you're going to build a Hawken, that's not correct. They sell a "Bridger Hawken" parts kit in which is provided a pretty flaming bit of maple.

I can't find where I read that, but I know I saw it somewhere. Just went through their catalogue, and can't find it. :idunno:

 

[ebiggs1]

...I'm going to go a step further than Mike and suggest you tell the nit-pickers to put their comments where the sun don't shine...

Shhhhh... do you want a visit from the HC/PC Police Squad? :grin:

 

[Herb]

LaBonte- thanks for the reference to "The Peacemakers". That Sam Hawken rifle I referenced is shown on page 49. The caption reads "Sam Hawken-made .70 caliber rifle, the most massive Hawken known. From the collection of Theodore Roosevelt, for many years displayed at his Sagamore Hill, Long Island, estate. According to Roosevelt, the rifle was Kit Carson's. Likely a buffalo killer, as well as a target rifle for bench shooting. Condition and quality of workmanship as fine as those of any known Hawken firearm." It has a checkered straight grip like any other Hawken and an elevating rear tang sight plus an open rear sight, probably not adjustable. The muzzle is turned round, perhaps for a false muzzle? Another photo on the same page has the caption "special-order pistol grip Sam Hawken rifle, 54 caliber with peep sight and extra-quality workmanship.
Shortbow- These R.L. Wilson books were for sale at about $25 a couple of years ago. You should be able to find them on Amazon or some other book seller. Or they ought to be available from an interlibrary loan (ask your friendly librarian).

 

[shortbow]

Thanks again, Fellers.

Mike, no worries brother, 'cause in any event I dug up lots of pictures of originals with good maple wood. Not a big deal.

Yep Herb, I've got a good relationship with the girls at the library, so I'll put them on the trail. They sure sound like dandy tomes.