My Seneca .36

[Seneca.36]

I have read several of the "new to" or "I got this smokepole" posts. Heres the deal. I have shot several .45's and .50's but this is my first .36 and its a beautiful Seneca. I have read quite a bit about it and it seems that FFF is the powder and T/C states 60gr for both PRB and Maxi-ball for max load. It strikes me as odd that the max load is the same for both seeing as how the maxi is almost 2x heavier in grain weight. I plan on starting a low charge with round balls and working to see what groups best. With the maxi's in mind what grain should I start with when I am ready to start tinkering with them?
Thanks tons in advanced
Rick Dunlap

 

[mr.flintlock]

Rick, I think 60-70 grains of 3-f would be about right for a Maxi in your 36. That seems a little much for a round ball. I believe your best load for PRB will fall somewhere between 35-45 grains 3-f.

 

[ohio ramrod]

For the patched round ball I would start at 30 grain FFF and work my way up. I doubt that you would find any charge above 50 Grain FFF will give good groupings with prb. For the maxi I have never personally had good results in smaller calibers.

 

[paulvallandigham]

If you want accuracy with that " maxi-ball", you will need to use an OP wad to protect the base of the bullet. 60 grains is the factory MAXIMUM powder charge. DO NOT START with such a load and go higher! Start at about 35 grains and go up slowly.

So many members here have found success using 20-30 grains of FFFg powder in their .36 calibers with a PRB, that its a bit hard to ignore that advice. The 20 grain charges work for squirrels and rabbits out to 25 yds. Much more velocity than what you get with that light load and you do a lot of damage to the meat. The 30 grain charges are good to 50 yds., but some few shooters have tried more powder when hunting large Ground Hogs, or Coyote, and fox.

The name of the game is accuracy. That small ball is moved quite easily by any wind, so keep it under 50 yds, or shorter max. ranges, if you can't shoot it accurately at 50 yds.

With the bullet, it may be twice the weight, but its still no long range shooter. Its only weights 128 grains!

The problem has always been getting the right powder charge to shoot that bullet accurate. The Groove depth of these rifles, as well as the Rate of Twist complicate matters. Without an OP or Base Wad to protect the base of the bullet, that is WIDE enough in diameter to fill the grooves, you get gas cutting.

The slow ROT means you have to push that bullet out at faster rotational speeds, and that can cause lead to be stripped off the sides of the bullet, which ruins accuracy. Unless a hard- alloy bullet is used, launching it at velocities over 1600 fps is going to strip lead. Even with a very hard alloy, lead is going to start stripping at 1800 fps. or so.

If you had a bullet barrel, say with shallow, .005" or less, groove depth, and a faster ROT- say, 1:16", you might be able to shoot that conical more accurately out to 100 yds, provided the bullet is sized to within .001" of bore diameter. I think these are the main reasons that people do not have a lot of success working with the maxi-ball in this caliber for long range accuracy. Even with these bullet and bore dimensions, you still get the best accuracy using a base wad to seal the gas behind the bullet, rather than counting on the bullet to upset and fill the grooves. :thumbsup:

Your Seneca is a delightful rifle to use to hunt small game out to 50 yds. Don't try to turn it into an elephant gun. Its been tried, and you risk damaging the gun over time with heavy loads. Stick with the Open sights, and limit the range at which you shoot. You can't tell kids about the " ONE THAT GOT AWAY", unless you let one get away! :hmm: :thumbsup:


Paul

 

[Zonie]

Just for the record the Lyman Black Powder Handbook says that a 3Fg powder load under a 125 grain Buffalo HP Conical created the following breech pressures:

50 grains = 16,600 psi
60 grains = 18,100 psi
70 grains = 19,600 psi

Those are some serious pressures which I wouldn't want to see in my muzzleloading guns.
They approach the pressures found in modern handguns firing smokeless powder.

 

[Seneca.36]

Hey thanks for the replies so far. I understand not to go above maximum load with either PRB or Maxi balls as this will damage this pristine little .36. whats the theory on th wad under the maxi and over the powder. I have been under the impression that once the cap is fired ingniting the powder charge the pressure wave expands the base of the maxi to the point of sealing the grooves and starting the maxi on its way.

 

[hanshi]

Any .36 rifle is a small game gun. As such all you need is a prb at a reasonable velocity. If power is what you want, consider going to a larger caliber. Don't try to turn a squirrel rifle into a bear rifle, especially one as nice as the Seneca.

My .36 is a flint SMR with a longer barrel than the Seneca and my standard load is a prb, 30 grains Goex 3f and an over powder wad. This is the accuracy load in my rifle. In the Seneca this load should give you 1600-1700 fps and great accuracy.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Before the lead can expand sufficiently into those deep grooves, GASES blow past the bullet in the grooves, and melt, or " CUT" the lead bullet. That destroys the symmetry of the bullet, and ruins the accuracy.

Hot gases also melt the base of the bullet. Using a Base wad( BP Cartridge Speak), or an OP Wad, (MLer Speak) large enough to fill the grooves seals those gases AWAY from the bullet so that NO Gas cutting occurs.

If you shoot bullets into a barrel of water, you can easily see the before and after affects described, on the recovered bullets.

If you don't want to take our word for these "facts", do your own testing, and discover it yourself. Its not like I am the only person to discover these things. [Read the Garbe and Venturino "Black Powder Cartridge Reloading Manual" Forward, which explains in detail how they load their BP cartridges to get sub 2 1/2" Groups at 200 yds., using tang peep sights.] Consider subscribing to Single Shot Exchange, or The Double Gun Journal, or join the Cast Bullet Association, and real its newsletters.

 

[shdwlkr]

I have two Senecas both in 36 caliber and one has a scope on it and I have shot it a few times at two hundred yards and that with a 40 grain powder charge.
I have also shot the maxi in them and usually stay around 40-45 grains. It is not a magnum so why try and get magnum performance.
When shooting prb I have gone as low as 15 grains and have had fun with it. I don't think I have gone past 45 grains max with either the prb or maxi as I just don't see the need to put that much stress on the rifle.

 

[Rat Trapper]

MY 36 cal seneca likes 40 grains of Goex 3F with prb. It's a heavier load than I like for small game, but it will drive tacks.