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Mystery musket

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Mike Brooks

Cannon
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here's an interesting gun,
. It has Brown bess mounts, a french military lock by Pynchon, and is I believe stamped by St, Etien, the barrel is briish proofed and 46" long. The wrist escution looks New England to me. Any body else have any thoughts on this one?
 
Why Mike, don't you know, it's a "committee of safety" musket? EVERY old musket is a committee of safety musket...right?

I wouldn't dare to guess where it was made. Very red walnut stock. I wonder what they used to make it red...red varnish? AF turns black walnut dark, but so far, I can't get it to turn it red. European walnut I haven't tried yet. A lot of European walnut guns have been stained quite red, and I don't know how it was done.
 
As I'm looking at this thing more I notice the crown stamp is on both the lock and the barrel.......odd since it's a british proofed barrel.
The stock looks more like black walnut that euro to me. I'm thinking you're right about the red tinted varnish. Did you notice how fish bellied the stock is.....possibly a hudson valley influence?
I might add , the stock is cut back at the muzzle just like a brown bess and it also carries a steel rammer. The side plate is a standard 1st model bess too.....butt the barrel???? I'd say the barrel is civilian as it's oct. to round.
Maybe Tom can hook this up with a Liege maker some how..... :winking:
 
Could it be a mixed part musket made in the colonies just prior to the American Revolution?

I agree with Russ here. The Colonial Militia would have used anything they could get. Importation of Muskets and arms was limited prior to the war by the British Goverment. There were very capable gunsmiths that could used surplus parts to make muskets. :results:
 
i really think that it was a commitee of saftey musket made before or during the rev war when guns were needed and they had some muskets that were usless and put what was good from them together to make one that would work :imo: you would think that it would be seen more :m2c:
 
I take this gun as a rev. war piece made out of old french and english musket parts somewhere in New England, probably somewhere in New York. It was definately made with a military use in mind with the cut back stock. I'm still intrigued with the crowned barrel and lock stamp being the same....
 
My first impulse is........

Possibly a New England fowler pieced togather from various parts/sources which was common.

Without having it in hand,it's impossible probably to be totally "for sure",but the stock looks like cherry from the photos.I just don't see the grain pattern (storied ray cells)of walnut.

The stock is unique.Look on page 54 of Grinslade's "Flintlock Fowlers" and you'll see a very similar stock which has the wrist extending back like this one.This is on a New England fowler."Course you see this style butt on a lot of Hudson Valley fowlers,also. :m2c:
 
My vote is for a New England militia musket.Many of these "style" muskets are shown in Geo. Neumann book Battle Weapons of the American Revolution.
 
This gun is a good example of a New England composite musket made just before or during the early days of the Revolution as evidenced by the hand rail butt styling of the Brown Bess and the Bess furniture. The barrel and lock bear the Sr.Etienne marks namely the open crown and the letters "S E",{Stockel,PP.434-437} although the barrel has two additional marks one of which appears to be a stylized crown.I do not recall ever seeing an English military barrel with an octagon to round breech section. I haven't found these other two marks yet but will keep looking. The auction house states the lock to be a replacement operating under the theory that the gun is a long land pattern Bess with a replaced lock. This I doubt.While the barrel may have been rebreeched with a squared end tang rather than a round end as is found on most French muskets,I think the lock and barrel were,along with an American made tail pipe and possibly the guard as well as some Bess furniture stocked up in New England about 1770-1779 as a musket to fill the need for arms in that early period.If I had to hazard a guess,I would say Connecticut based on the wood which in my opinion is cherry.When we think of 18th century high country furniture in Connecticut we just naturally think cherry and the Connecticut River Valley school.I think it's the same in guns.The thumb piece is of course American made and installed either when the gun was stocked or possibly later.This is a very good example of a composite gun stocked up by a New England gunsmith who was a cut above the average.It is, as has been pointed out, NOT a Committee Of Safety musket.A look at "United States Martial Flintlocks" by Robert M. Riley quickly satisfied me that such was not the case.
I note that this gun is estimated to fetch $1000.00 to $2000.00.and if the gun is right and I see no reason to think otherwise, anything below $2000.00 would be reasonable and at $1000.00 it would be a steal.I honestly don't know if the lock has been replaced but I doubt it. That lock is probably from a model 1754,the last in the 1717 series.This gun just looks "right" although I suspect it's been cleaned somewhat.It looks an awful lot like my composite fusil/musket with more of a mixture than this one.It too is made from Cherry and I believe it came from Connecticut also.
Anyhow this is what I think so take your best shots.
Tom Patton :m2c:
 
I 'll go with everything Tom says, no problem. The other stamps on ther barrel are english proofs along with the St. Etien stamp, and that's a real puzzler to me. I don't believe that barrel ever had anything ever to do with a bess barrel, and still believe its a non military civilian barrel...at least when it started out life. That lock has always been with this gun since day one.
Could this barrel have started out on a gun made in Liege and had fake english stamps applied there? And then been shipped to St. Etien and stamped with their mark before being sent over to the colonies to one day been stocked into this gun? I know Liege was shipping guns to St Etien and St Etien was stamping them with their marks and then shipping them out "as their own" product.
Quite a puzzler. ::
 
Mike,I think you are on to something here.Quoting again from Gaier p.57,
"As example of military purchases we may refer to some
well known[url] transactions.In[/url] 1632 Jacques de Chastenet,
the lord of Puysegur,is ordered by Louis XIII to
purchase four thousand muskets and two thousand
corselets in Flanders.He procures them in Liege
and Utrecht,has the firearms proved in Holland
and from there takes them by boat to Rouen."

Bouchard has described Martial Fenis de la Combe,the director of the Tulle Factory in the early 18th century having crates of guns manufactured at St. Etienne unloaded at his factory,"The Fusil de Tulle In New France 1691-1741" by Russel Bouchard P.5

"Holland was,instead,a centre for re-export to every region of the world. Firearms were distributed far and wide by Amsterdam and Rotterdam.The operations of fowarding centres,a characteristic feature of the arms trade,must always be borne in mind whenever we seek to discover the final destination of any product",Gaier PP.56-57

In addition to complete guns Liegeois dealers were exporting spare parts,Gaier,P.58

"According to a petition by the syndics of Saint-Etienne in 1780,Liege was then exporting to France ten times more arms than the Saint-Etienne factory itself was producing" Gaier,P.58

In the 16th through the 18th century and possibly before Liege was the major firearms prodcer of Europe

"An order prohibiting war supplies for the United States from being transported through the Low Countries was promulgated on the 27th April,1776.It had no real effect. It was followed in fact,according to the reports of French diplomats in Liege, by a burst of feverish activity on the part of the arms manufacturers,particularly Claude Niquet and Jean Gosuin who were busily supplying not only the Americans,via Holland,but also British emissaries with muskets,pistols,bayonets,gun-barrels and stocks in tens of thousands." Gaier P.60

We have all {or at least some of us}read about the ship loads of arms including parts arranged by Ben Franklin to be sent by France to America for the Revolution.It is,therefore, entirely within reason that the same types of goods were being exported from Liege via Holland and Rotterdam to New France,New Netherland,and the colonies before the Revolution.One can then theorize that Liege barrels were shipped first to Saint-Etienne for proving and then either to England for proving or,and very possibly ,fake English and/or French marks were added prior to trans-shipment to the colonies.And we think we know how to wheel and deal? Have I confused you enough?
Cheers
Tom Patton :thumbsup: :what:
 
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I'm right with you Tom, you havn't lost me yet. I think the english proofs are fake, having been put there by Liege. They looked a little funky to me the first time I saw them. I've heard of this practice in the past , just never saw the fake proofs in the past in person. So. I think what we have here is a Liege produced barrel that had fake British proofs smacked on the barrel, then the gun was sent to St Etien for a Quick arsenal stamp then boxed back up and sent to the colonies sometime during or just before the F&I war. Sometime from it's delivery to the Rev. war this gun was some how busted up and the parts were used to make this composite musket.......well, it sounds good on paper anyway..... :winking:
 
I have a buddy that has a mint condition French Model 1777.It IS a Liege contract musket as it is marked and proofed accordingly.
 
I concur with Mike and Tom though I am not as experienced in this arena.(I'm still running with my radar in the active search mode!) The stock is definately cherry as can readily be seen in the second photo of the last photos posted.Wouldn't this fact help indicate that it was probably created from various parts most probably used on more than one other piece prior to being constructed in its present form?I see strong similarities in the parts used--ie lock plate,buttplate,ramrod entry pipe-- and those used in assembling British style fowlers in the New Jersey,New York area. Correct me if I'm wrong in my reasoning here :thanks:.
 
Sideplate, buttplate, triggerguard are british military. Lock is french military. Barrel is somewhat of a mystery with british and St Etien stamps...possibly something to do with Liege...
The stock is 100% homespun american cherry from somewhere in the new england area.
Somebody buy this thing OK? :thumbsup:
 
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