MYTH BUSTING: recoil associated with cresent shaped butt plates

[roundball]

There seem to be some people afraid to use rifles with cresent shaped buttplates, to the point of making strong statements advising others not to use them "due to recoil" so it might be worth having a thread to discuss and understand this.
Historians, jump in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand cresent shaped butt plates have been around for centuries...certainly in the 1800s, through the 1900's, and continuing on into the current 21st century.

My assumption is that some people "see" the curved ends of a cresent shaped buttplate...called the Heel and Toe...and apparently assume the Heel or Toe will poke into their shoulder and hurt them.
Nothing could be further from the truth...those who routinely shoot rifles with cresent shaped buttplates do so without any unique recoil issues associated with the heel or toe.

In my case I've used Hawken style rifles with brass cresent shaped buttplates for the past 18 years.
In the spring of 2008 I passed the 10,000 shot mark...and specifically, hundreds of those shots have been made with .58 and .62cal Hawkens in the past 2-3 years. I can state categorically that the heel and toe of the cresent shape buttplates on my .58 and .62cal Hawken rifles makes no difference with recoil whatsoever...and I am not known for using powder puff loads.

When a rifle with a cresent shaped buttplate is mounted correctly, the disposition of the heel and toe is as follows:

1) The point of the curved heel is up above the shoulder and not being pressed back against anything.

2) The point of the curved toe fits down naturally into the void between the arm and the side of the body...it does not press back against anything either.

3) Any recoil felt is the normal push back of the central part of the butt plate, which in the case of my Hawken rifles measures 1+3/4" wide and that whole contact area is not unlike other buttplates.

No recoil is felt at the heel or the toe as they do not press against anything.
People should not be afraid of cresent shaped buttplates...they've been around and in use for centuries.

 

[Dave K]

You are right Roundball. But, the butt plate for me is narrow enough to get to me. The wider butt plates of the Lancaster style etc. seem to distribute the recoil over a wider area. I never had any trouble though with the toe and heel of the butt plate style you speak of. I shoot that style off of the shoulder and not "in" the shoulder.

 

[buttonbuck]

Ok roundball first you tell us about that great deal green mountain barrel was having on 62 smoothbores and I buy one and then I buy a single trigger renegade to put the new barrel now I am going to try the 62 barrel on my 54 hawken frame that accomodates the nice green mountain 32 cal barrel (it balanced better on the hawken than the renegade) then what next I have to buy another hawken in 54 cal to put the green mountain 62 cal barrel on now I would have 3 extra barrels from tc, where am I going to find stocks for them it is like the kids story "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie" is this how it all starts :rotf:

 

[blacksmithman64]

I don't know,roundball...I had a .45 T/C Hawken and that thing LOVED to light me up! :surrender: Strangely my .50 T/C Hawken doesn't nor does my .54 Renegade. Or my I. Haines or Bess! Or my pistol! I think that .45 was just evil. :shocked2:

 

[nchawkeye]

We see that type butt plate come into style around 1800 or so, as you mentioned, that type isn't held in the hollow of the shoulder as a 1770 style Lancaster could be held, but more on the upper arm...

During this same time the drop of the stock also increased for better off hand shooting, this increased recoil as well...

To the unitiated, a crescent butt plate looks like it would kick like a mule...Held properly it's no big deal...

 

[Keppy]

roundball said
2) The point of the curved toe fits down naturally into the void between the arm and the side of the body...it does not press back against anything either.

That is true. My first rifle a CVA has that crescent shaped butt plate. I found that I was shooting it improperly. But as soon as I was shown the proper way, no more poking and bruies. But sometimes I forget with my 58. I don't forget as much now. [/color]

 

[roundball]

Ok roundball first you tell us about that great deal green mountain barrel was having on 62 smoothbores and I buy one and then I buy a single trigger renegade to put the new barrel now I am going to try the 62 barrel on my 54 hawken frame that accomodates the nice green mountain 32 cal barrel (it balanced better on the hawken than the renegade) then what next I have to buy another hawken in 54 cal to put the green mountain 62 cal barrel on now I would have 3 extra barrels from tc, where am I going to find stocks for them it is like the kids story "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie" is this how it all starts :rotf:

Just keep shortcut icons on your desktop for ebay, Gunbroker, AuctionArms, and pour over all the various Forum classifieds you can find...
:grin:

 

[Many Klatch]

We always called the crescent butt plate guns "Arm Guns". You have to stand differently than you do with an English Fowler, much more across the body than straight out.

I always liked an Arm Gun because the vertical hold could be adjusted simply by moving the right arm up and down.

I think the people that hate crescent butt plates are the ones that try to shoot them off a bench, now that will hurt.

Many Klatch

 

[DanChamberlain]

Thank you Many!

The crescent butt plate was never meant to be fired from the shoulder! It was meant to be fired from the anterior deltoid pad on the upper arm. The body was more severely bladed to the target, than the later style of upright shooting where the body was more square to the target.

The posture would be akin to shooting a long bow.

Dan

 

[renovato]

I can see their point if they insist on shooting them from the shoulder like they would with a modern rifle. I have had them bite me pretty hard that way too. They just don't fit my shoulder without either the toe or the heel poking me. I have large shoulder. When I slide the gun over on my arm a bit, like they're meant to be shot, they have all shot pretty gentle, even larger calibers with heavy loads. I've grown to like the crescent butt plates, as they fit my bicep quite well and shoot well that way. To the point that I'm somewhat surprised that some modern guns haven't held on to that trait.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Thank you Many!

The crescent butt plate was never meant to be fired from the shoulder! It was meant to be fired from the anterior deltoid pad on the upper arm. The body was more severely bladed to the target, than the later style of upright shooting where the body was more square to the target.

The posture would be akin to shooting a long bow.

Dan

Exactly! I have a Hawken that weighs just under 10 pounds and has a Hawken shop butt plate. It lines up its sights perfectly every time as long as it is mounted out on the upper arm and the rifle is angled more across the body. It's a .54 caliber and even with stiff loads it doesn't punish me. I don't often shoot it from the bench, but when I have, it is comfortable to shoot and I never feel beat up by it. Maybe too many people have seen Jeremiah Johnson and remember when he fires Hatchet Jack's rifle for the first time and the "recoil" makes him flop around like a fish out of water. They just expect this type of butt plate to hurt them--many if not most have probably never fired a rifle with a crescent buttplate but they're happy to tell you how much it hurts!

 

[roundball]

They just expect this type of butt plate to hurt them--many if not most have probably never fired a rifle with a crescent buttplate but they're happy to tell you how much it hurts!

That's it in a nutshell...its immediately obvious who owns and shoots them vs. those who don't.
Those who own and shoot them are not the ones who claim that they'll hurt you :wink:

 

[Mr Hawken]

i own a renegade .54 and don't find that it hurts the shoulder but i did find the trigger pull to be to short for me and my thumb would always give me a smack.i put a recoil pad on and then my sling and seems to be the right fit

 

[PGTMG]

They just expect this type of butt plate to hurt them--many if not most have probably never fired a rifle with a crescent buttplate but they're happy to tell you how much it hurts!

That's it in a nutshell...its immediately obvious who owns and shoots them vs. those who don't.
Those who own and shoot them are not the ones who claim that they'll hurt you :wink:

I own two crescent shaped butt plated rifles (one 40 one 54) and I shoot them. They were both gifts and would not part with them for any amount of money.

When I lived in Kentucky I used to go to a weekly match we shoot mostly standing but some sitting for any where from 10-25 shots with money on each shot (not to mention the broad preview to question the moral and genetic make up of all poorly performing).
To be honest they do wear on me quicker than a flat butt plate would. I had other black powder rifles but have gotten rid of all but these two. Once shooting a running deer match the 54 grabbed my attention with one shot when it slipped askew into the pocket of my shoulder.

I have heard some carry on in an unmanly way about my butt plates after shooting my guns. But like all myths there is some truth behind it. If you do not have your standing position down or you like to bench shoot you'll learn it. JMHO

How I handle it when someone complains about my guns is to say “Crescent butt plates are only found on men’s guns. Woman guns have flat butt plates so they don’t fall down while leaning against the kitchen wall”

This usually is followed by one of the following looks. :redface: :shocked2: :cursing: :barf: and my favorite :bow:

 

[catman]

I wish all my center fire rifles had the cresent shaped buttplates.

 

[Zonie]

Darn.
When I saw the "Myth Busting" heading on this topic I was assuming ole' roundball was going to set up some sort of experiment to evaluate the effects of a crescent butt plate.

You know, where he goes out and buys a gun with a real deep crescent butt plate and then loads it up to the max and holds it the wrong way and then fires it.

Then he could load it up again and hold it on his arm and fire it.

Then he could then take off his shirt and show us the black and blue marks it leaves on his body but not on his arm.
Now, that would be more like the "Myth Busting" I'm use to seeing. :rotf:

 

[WV MZL HUNTER]

They just expect this type of butt plate to hurt them--many if not most have probably never fired a rifle with a crescent buttplate but they're happy to tell you how much it hurts!

That's it in a nutshell...its immediately obvious who owns and shoots them vs. those who don't.
Those who own and shoot them are not the ones who claim that they'll hurt you :wink:

I have never had any trouble with my T/C's. I feel it helps me hold the gun steady. Now if I load it up with 90 grs. and 370 Maxi it will kick, IT's Suppose to. :hmm:

 

[LaBonte]

Ever notice in the old shooting manuals (those up to the late 1950's at least) where they instruct you to keep your shooting arm elbow as high as your shoulder or even a little higher?
With your shooting arm in that position the crescent butt plate sets just right.....
I've shot my 54's that way for better than 40 years with up to some fairly hefty loads and no pain or injury.....

 

[k.jacobfrost]

Darn.
When I saw the "Myth Busting" heading on this topic I was assuming ole' roundball was going to set up some sort of experiment to evaluate the effects of a crescent butt plate.

You know, where he goes out and buys a gun with a real deep crescent butt plate and then loads it up to the max and holds it the wrong way and then fires it.

Then he could load it up again and hold it on his arm and fire it.

Then he could then take off his shirt and show us the black and blue marks it leaves on his body but not on his arm.
Now, that would be more like the "Myth Busting" I'm use to seeing. :rotf:

Hey Zonie, your forgetting the rest of that kind of "Myth Busting" After all that he would have to give it a real heavy load to insure a bruise on his arm as well.

Frost

 

[BrownBear]

I've only been bit by crescent butt plates twice.

Once when I was a kid barely strong enough to hold it, I snuck my granpap's 1895 Winchester in 405 and one shell out of the house and shot it behind the barn when no one else was home. Held it in the pocket of my shoulder just like I did my 410, and felt like it ripped my shoulder off. No one ever said anything, but I suspect they knew something like that had happened, because for days both granpap and granmam would call me in to reach for things way high up on a shelf.

Second time was recent with a really light custom 62 cal with lots of cast off. Problem was, I'm a lefty and it was a fer sure righty. Wasn't even thinking when that sucker neslted into my shoulder, but I sure recalled my experience with the 95 when I lit it off. Kinda hard sighting, but on the next shot I put it out where it belonged, and no probs.