National Muzzleloading Rifle Assoc

[coloradoclyde]

I've run into more than one shooter that wanted to break or bend the rules to their advantage....Forcing them to comply or leave isn't shunning....They are poor sportsmen, easily identified by their whining about the rules.....Getting rid of them keep the competition fair for all.....Some people just have a "win at all cost" mentality....They ruin it for everyone and drive people away in droves.....

 

[meanmike8665]

Hi Randy,
You hit the nail on the head shooting for the enjoyment and competing are to different things and I also think we have let those that have win at all cost ruin what was good shooting match to exclude people. As a match director I have had to explain rules that weren't popular, also and disqualified people cheating, not much fun. At the Western there were 5 or 6 people who have the equipment the trigger time to shoot a score that would make you feel good about shooting that Agg. And let's be clear, yes I was one of the 5 or 6, if we keep ignoring people who show up with GP and T/C wanting to shoot and give them the same Agg's they fail, we won't grow and we won't get better. I want people who shoot traditional guns at the matches, I want them to shoot good scores and have a good time, just like I did when I started.

Michael

 

[coloradoclyde]

Is this the rule you are complaining about?

20. Off-the-shelf guns, chunk guns, muskets, squirrel rifles, one gun, buffalo, and smoothbore guns must be inspected by the range officer for sights and authenticity and must receive a sticker.

 

[meanmike8665]

:hmm: I am not complaining about a rule. I am a National Range Officer, I know each and every rule and what they mean, as the NMLRA rule book is written and how they are different than Mathch rules, which can be different. I am talking about changing Match rules and targets. When I started shooting Buffalo matches at our club we used the single bull Buffalo, everyone in the club shoot the match, open sights, peeps sight did not matter the scores were usually between 46 an 50 and everyone enjoyed the match. Then came two bull and five bull, well we changed and what we found was peep sight shooters the scores stayed the same, open sight scores dropped and people lost interest. Why, I always thought I guy will shoot a match or a target for the enjoyment and if he shot a good and got beat, oh well, but to shoot a lousy score and a difficult target and get beat by 20 points, well, who needs the aggravation. It is supposed to be fun!!!

 

Hi Randy,
You hit the nail on the head shooting for the enjoyment and competing are to different things and I also think we have let those that have win at all cost ruin what was good shooting match to exclude people. As a match director I have had to explain rules that weren't popular, also and disqualified people cheating, not much fun. At the Western there were 5 or 6 people who have the equipment the trigger time to shoot a score that would make you feel good about shooting that Agg. And let's be clear, yes I was one of the 5 or 6, if we keep ignoring people who show up with GP and T/C wanting to shoot and give them the same Agg's they fail, we won't grow and we won't get better. I want people who shoot traditional guns at the matches, I want them to shoot good scores and have a good time, just like I did when I started.

Michael

Now that I’m in the recliner with my feet up and my shoes off I've taken the time to read your last few posts as well as go through the shoot program for the Western National.
I'm a tad confused.
The match program for the Western National I saw offered several matches that production rifles could be very competitive in. The line matches that are for open sights say nothing about fixed rear sights. According to my understanding, that means that adjustable factory sights are allowed. There is no requirement to ever shoot an aggregate. You can shoot individual offhand matches, reentry matches, novelty matches, silhouette matches”¦.. all can be shot with any round ball production rifle I have ever heard of. If the only way to insure every one has a good time and will be back is to make sure everyone wins something”¦. You can make a 10 yard target with a two foot ten ring but in the end it is still the shooter’s responsibility to hit it.
I don’t know if you do things differently out there, if trap and primitive have different kinds of people, or if I have just completely lost touch with things, but”¦”¦.
I don’t know that I have ever seen a new shooter be ignored. They may have to initiate things, but once they do they will get all the help they need. The only time I can see friction is if someone shows up, obviously has bad habits that could endanger them self or others, and refuses and rebukes any attempt to be steered in another direction. If a person like that leaves the only regret is that the someday they will give the sport bad publicity due to their stupidity.
But anyway, what EXACTLY are you saying the problem is? That new shooters competing out of their league are getting discouraged because they don't place? Steer them to lower level matches. Let ”˜em shoot a woodswalk or two where a hit in the eight ring is as good as a ten X. You have to learn to walk before you can run. Nothing anyone or any organization can say or do is going to change that.

 

And always bear in mind my mantra.
Blessed by the losers, for they determine the winners.

 

[meanmike8665]

Again, I know the rules, I know the matches. It is my opinion that a program change is needed. I have heard from many experienced shooters let them shoot lesser matches, I am saying design matches for traditional open sight rifles that make sense. To many shooters going once and not coming back. Why.

Michael

 

Again, I know the rules, I know the matches. It is my opinion that a program change is needed. I have heard from many experienced shooters let them shoot lesser matches, I am saying design matches for traditional open sight rifles that make sense. To many shooters going once and not coming back. Why.

Michael

What kind of matches do you propose that are not already available? It looked like a wide selection to me. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just can't imagine what more could be done.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Mike,
Your starting to make some sense....or at least I'm starting to understand you... I see your dilemma...
Not sure what advice I can offer other than, "if ya can't beat'em, join'em"

:idunno:

 

[meanmike8665]

Ok, let's be clear these ideas are working in Ca. My wife and I plus two friends started a new club about seven years ago our plan was to teach people how to go to a State Championship, NMLRA Territioral, National shoot read the match program and be able to understand all the rules. The California State shoot had been on life support for decades, a Past President called to ask if I would take over and fix it long story short we said yes. Our first State shoot we had twelve shooters, last year we had twenty-five. One of our new Agg is a traditional rifle, two off hand and two bench. The off-hand are standard 8 ring black 6 bull and 100 yd bull, the big difference is the bench targets 50 yd is the 100 yd slug 6 bull the x ring is 1 inch and the 10 ring is 2 inches and standard 7 ring black single bull. The first year we offered this Agg two people shot it, last year six. I know this is a small sample, but it is progress. BTW, the record is 48xx on the slug 50 yd target. We were afraid the record would be 50 xxxxx by now! We always hear how much fun it was to shoot this Agg because the scores are close and the guys feel like they beat the Agg. I would like something like this at the Western Nat. In California the big deal Agg was simple two off-hand and two bench any iron sight, standard 8 ring black, 25 and 50 yes off-hand and 50 and 100 bench. I would like to see it add also. BTW, the difinition of open sights on the Traditional Agg no target knob adjustable sights. They can be adjustable, just can't look like target sights.

I would like to see a change in the Women's matches, if you go look at the bench and buffalo scores for the last three years the second and third place shooter had less than a score of 75 for the Agg. Women who do come and shoot usually have some sort of off-hand rifle very difficult to shoot a good score on a single bull 8 ring black let alone a 6 bull 100 yd target.
Before you get mad thinking I want to make changes because my wife shoots, stop. My wife has been the Top-Gun women's Territorial shooter for several years in a row, she can take care of herself in any match men's or women's, but to see other women be disappointed because it is a lousy target that is heart braking.

Michael

 

[meanmike8665]

Sorry, I don't know what that means. Are you joining us?

Michael

 

[coloradoclyde]

No!...I meant you should change the sights on your gun.....
I have decided to stop "busting your chops" on the matter... :v

 

[meanmike8665]

It's not about me changing sights, I CAN. I can shoot most of the matches at the Western I want, it is about those that only come once and don't come back, and why. I think a change to the match program will help and yes I could be wrong. At least I am willing to stand up and have an opinion and fight for it. Change is needed for grow in the NMLRA, I am willing to fight for change. And willing to put my money where my mouth is, my wife and I will become life members later this year.

Michael

 

[coloradoclyde]

Don't you do exit surveys?

 

[coloradoclyde]

With close to a 100 different matches, I find it hard to believe that a person cant find one or more things to shoot and maybe even walk away a winner..

Maybe it's too big for some folks.

 

With close to a 100 different matches, I find it hard to believe that a person cant find one or more things to shoot and maybe even walk away a winner..

Maybe it's too big for some folks.

My feeling exactly.
Over the years I have won a few matches. But I have lost a lot more than I have won. Nothing has been said about the age group of the shooters who come once, don’t win, and never come back. I have to wonder if we are dealing with folks who grew up under the guise of the Self Esteem Movement where there was no wrong answer and everyone got a trophy.
No matter how much bigger you make the scoring rings, unless you restrict the match to first time shooters, or at least shooters who have never placed in a match, the end result is going to be the same. This was done, and as far as I know still is, on the trap range at Friendship. Even then though, the birds were the same size and the speed out of the trap was the same.
If people are not returning because they didn’t win or were unhappy with their score, there is really only one solution. They need to practice more often. If they don’t want to do that, any attempt by an outside entity to improve their scores is the ultimate exercise in futility.

 

[coloradoclyde]

Nothing has been said about the age group of the shooters who come once, don’t win, and never come back. I have to wonder if we are dealing with folks who grew up under the guise of the Self Esteem Movement where there was no wrong answer and everyone got a trophy.

I don't see any need to start assigning derogatory labels, creating scapegoats and handing out blame..... :shake:

Has it occurred that, it may just be like Mt. Rushmore? Something people want to see or do once just to say they did it....Kind of like crossing it off your bucket list?

Not everyone has that "die hard" competitive spirit....I'd say there are 3 types of shooters.
1. competitive shooters

2. Those who shoot for fun and enjoyment

3. Hunters.

Some people encompass all three.....

The thing that I would be interested in is if they actually have any data on the rate of non-return.

The reasons why someone doesn't return can be widely varied...

 

[Billnpatti]

I think we are on the same page with this idea about matches. I used to live in Indiana about a 45 minute drive from Friendship and I used to shoot there a LOT. I did not have a gun for every match and I didn't have the costume to shoot in the primitive matches but that was okay. I shot in the matches for which I had the correct gun and accoutrements and I had fun, lots of fun. I didn't whine because I couldn't shoot in all of the matches. What I did was shoot in the matches for which I was prepared and for which I had an acceptable gun. There were plenty of matches in which I could shoot....not compete, just shoot. :haha: I simply don't understand why someone would show up at a match for which they are completely unprepared or for which they lack the correct gun and then get their panties in a wad when they find out that they are turned away. Take whatever guns you have...one, two, three, whatever you have and shoot in the matches for which you have the correct gun and skip those for which you are unprepared. Just read the dang rules and follow them. There were lots of matches in which I couldn't shoot but, there were many in which I could shoot. Even so, I didn't shoot in all of the one for which I met the qualifications, there were just way too many. Don't show up at a primitive match in jeans, T-shirt and ball cap, carrying a scoped T/C and wonder why you are turned away. Read the rules!! It sure as hell ain't rocket surgery.

 

[coloradoclyde]

I am willing to fight for change. And willing to put my money where my mouth is, my wife and I will become life members later this year.

Life has taught me valuable lessons....

"You cant fix problems by throwing money at them...Even if you think you can fix someone else's problems by throwing money at them, doing so won't fix your own".....

 

I wasn't aware I was applying derogatory labels, creating scapegoats, or assigning blame. Maybe you are unaware of it, but there are more than a few of the younger set who have grown up believing things should always go their way. When the reality of the real world smacks them upside the head they are unprepared to handle it.