NDN gun comb modifications

I've seen a lot of original Indian trade guns or NM guns with the combs heavily modified. Some had a dish cut in them, some had the comb trimmed off to the wrist such that the butt only looked say 3-4" long with a very long wrist. Originally, I thought these were repairs where the thin comb was broken in a fall and was cut off and smoothed, but you'd expect to see more wrist fractures in that case. Doesn't make much sense to me. Any ideas why they did this?

Thanks,

Sean

 

[paulvallandigham]

If the stock is too straight, and you have a wide face, you have to remove wood to allow the gun to be mounted to your shoulder( in the pocket) and allow you to get your eye in line with the barrel. The more narrow the width of your face, the less wood needs to be removed to get your eye centered over the barrel. The mor drop in the stock, the less the comb has to be reduced in height, or removed.

 

[Todd Rickard]

The modification is common on guns used in cold weather. It's to allow for the heavy clothing worn around the neck and shoulders. Often seen on Canadian guns.

 

Maybe on the drop thing. They do have very straight stocks. There's an 1841 Mississippi rifle in Garavagila's book that may fit that, but many of these are major modifications where drop wouldn't explain it. There's a picture of a Shawnee reenactor in a recent issue of Muzzleloader with a gun that is modified in this fashion. I have some other pictures that I'll try to scan where this was taken to an extreme with Plains tribes. Sorry, but I don't buy the clothing explanation.

Sean

 

[Bountyhunter]

I have heard mentioned that the Commancheros did that so that they could hold the gun under their arms for buffalo running.............?? I cannot verify that though. A-rabs did that to their muskets for shootin off of running camels also.

 

[Todd Rickard]

Like this?
[url] http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w152/flintlockCAN/pix496292907.jpg[/url]

 

[matt denison]

I think Paul hit it correctly. I've seen several pics. of trade guns that have a concave dished out on the comb. I've also seen some "jowly" cheeked fellows have a hard time getting their face down far enough to sight down the barrel. The whole problem can be circumvented by using a stock with enough drop.

L. Dog

 

I'll buy that explanation for that. Fusil, thanks for posting the pic.

There are some so-called blanket guns out there where the butt is cut down about 1/2 way and the comb reshaped such that you end up with a very long wrist. I wonder if Bountyhunter's explanation on buffalo running doesn't have something to do with these. It may be that these allowed for a 2 hand hold on a short gun.

On that topic, there are some great descriptions of buffalo running in Garavaglia and Worman's book Firearms of the American West 1803-1865. One is a description of Delaware buffalo hunters holding their rifles under between their leg and the saddle and leaning over to aim the piece at a racing buffalo. They cite several sources of spitting balls down the barrel without patches and mention that many barrels burst due to balls rolling back towards the muzzle. This latter issue is probably the main reason for the number of short buffalo runner NW guns out there.

Sean

 

[Todd Rickard]

I don't believe the wide face/smaller stock idea... Why wouldn't we see modern guns modified this way? Also... the amount of wood removed on these guns would be a lot more than what would be needed to allow for slightly wider features.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Custom stocks DO have many of these changes, starting with more Cast Off, and then adjusted combs. Most Trap shotguns, and those made for Skeet shooting come with adjustable stocks for pull, and comb, and to some extent, pitch. The guns I refer to are specifically made to be used in these clay target sports. The Trap guns are single barrel with high ribs, and adjustment in the stock for comb height, pitch, and pull. Some are designed for a two barrel set, with one being for shooting singles trap, and the other for shooting doubles. They will always be in a O/U configuration, and will also have adjustable triggers, and stocks. They are fitted with screw in chokes, are often back bored, ( a 12 gauge gun has 10 gauge bore most of its lenth, until you near the choke tubes in the muzzle, where the bore tapers down to 12 gauge. Back boring reduces shot deformation, reduces both pressure and recoil forces, and the gently squeezing of the tapered board elongates the shot string as it goes through the choke tubes, where it regains its original lenth before exiting the muzzle. This produces tight patterns for long range shots. ) Check out guns made by Kreigoff, Ljutik, Perazzi and others. Briley is probably the most famous of the after market barrel makers, choke tube makers, and customizers of guns for shooters. I believe that company is in Seattle, Washington.

 

[Todd Rickard]

Thanks Paul, but what I meant was this... Indian guns, as the title of the thread reflects, modified for some reason. I don't believe that Native features would warrant such drastic modification of the comb. If that were the case IMO we would still see the modification being done by natives. I have never seen a contemporary native hunting rifle modified like those guns in question.
I would tend to believe the two handed grip, or the under the arm or leg hold. I was told it was to allow for bulky clothing, so I thought of that first.
What I'm saying is we don't see a modern equivalent of this specific modification, so I think it was for some purpose that dosn't apply today.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The problem anyone has with drawing conclusions from viewing one or two guns is that you don't know whose hands these items have passed through. Any one of them could have altered the stock for some unthought out purpose. Some kid might have been give the old gun because they had no powder for it, and they let him play with it. The kid might have taken a saw to the stock to make it fit him. Or put tacks in it because they were laying around after a couch was re-upholstered. Who would know? I have seen all kinds of abuse heaped on well made guns- that would bring tears to the eyes of most of us. If a criminal gets ahold of any long gun, it is almost surely going to be sawed on , one end or the other, or both. I knew of a Browning Superposed Over & Under shotgun that was stolen in a burglary of a gun store. Found 30 days later, some criminal moron had sawed the barrels off just in front of the forestock, and then cut off the butt stock at the pistol grip. The wood on the gun alone was worth more than the criminal ever got from any of the armed robberies he pulled with the gun, and probably worth more than all the money he got combined. Worse, not a bit of bluing was left on the gun, and the gun was rusted shut. :youcrazy: :cursing:

 

I think we're talking about 2 different things in terms of comb mods. Full length butts with such modifications are a different article than the sawed down versions. I was thinking about the full length versions a bit and this is mere speculation. Aside from personal shooting style, I think its height not width that determines drop., i.e. long necks and not jowly cheeks. Many of the tribes were on average taller than European stock. Cheyenne men for example reportedly averaged about 6 feet or better in height. If they needed, more drop, the flat butt plate of NW guns could be placed higher on the shoulder, unlike curved butts which would have been really uncomfortable. Hence carving off a bit of the narrow comb could achieve the effect of more drop. Fusil de Chasse's picture is exactly the same as as the comb mods on an English NW gun pictured in Parson's 1952 'Gunmakers of the AFC'.

The cut-down, long-wristed buffalo runner guns are a different critter all together. I think these evolved sort of by accident for short range work off a running pony. Barrels that burst from a poorly seated ball were trimmed off with a file, and the result was found to be handier and easier to load on the run in the saddle. Trimming down the stocks would have been the next step. Nothing was ever wasted. Butt plates and barrel fragments were turned into tools like hide scrapers.

As for Paul's comment about who's hands the guns passed through on their way through history. I doubt these are the result of 'criminals'. Many cut-down buffalo runner guns were collected directly from the tribes by the US Army during the NDN War era and these went directly into museum collections including the US Cartridge Co. Collection which I believe is in a Missouri museum.

Like I said this is all speculation, but that's why its fun.

Sean

 

[paulvallandigham]

The indians also cut down the barrels and stocks of guns to make them more concealable, and then had their women carry the guns under their blankets. Women were not searched by soldiers, as a rule, so this was a way to take guns into a fort, or reservation, or even a jail.

Remember that Bonnie and Clyde cut the stock short on a BAR so that a strap could be looped over Clyde's shoulder and the gun carryied into banks under a rain coat, but swung up to fire quickly from under the raincoat. I know of guns where the stock was modified so that a user could sit on it in a car or truck seat, or even in a saddle on a horse, with the barrel sticking out to one side for a point blank surprise if they were stopped.

 

The indians also cut down the barrels and stocks of guns to make them more concealable, and then had their women carry the guns under their blankets. Women were not searched by soldiers, as a rule, so this was a way to take guns into a fort, or reservation, or even a jail.

Paul, the two references I can think of for this are the Michilimackinac uprising which is doubtful and the story of the rescue of Bridger by his wives, which is also doubtful. IMO, the number of 'buffalo runner' guns in collections suggests that these were more of an everyday usage or hunting situation than something so specialized and rare as the infiltration of a fort or post. Most of these also came from the plains tribes. 'Canoe' guns are a different issue and as Okwaho has said these appear to be modern fantasy guns, but nonetheless handy for certain applications.

Having handled a Browning Automatic Rifle once upon a time, I can't help but say it. Is that a BAR in your pocket or are you happy to see me? :hmm: :rotf:

Sean

 

[paulvallandigham]

I was thinking of two cases: Ft. Detroit before the failed attack in 1912; and Ft. Robinson, Nebraska, when guns were smuggled into the fort by the women, and used to try a break out. There are stories out of the Apache reservations concerning how Geronimo and his men secured arms, for their break outs, but the history on those is pretty fuzzy. If this occurred in any other forts, I have not read about it in the books.