Necessary Complications?

[Many Klatch]

I agree, keep it simple, set your rifle up to shoot dead on, have fun.

I hate shooting paper targets. Shooting for group is boring at any distance. I like targets that break, swing, fall down or disappear. I do shoot paper when I can't find anything else to shoot but what I really like is woodswalks. I don't know about minute of angle or all that, but as long as I can cut a playing card in half, hit a chain at 40 yards or hit that 6" gong at 100 yards I'm happy.

I have simplified my loading procedures through the years. My rifle's muzzles are all coned so I can load without a short starter, I prime from the same horn I load from. I use spit as my lube.

Many Klatch

 

[zimmerstutzen]

A "high degree of accuracy" is not a 2 inch group from kneeling position at 25 yds. That translates to an 8 inch group at 100 yds. It is fair at best. I have put 5 into a postage stamp at 25 yds with my 32, offhand and didn't even place in the match.

A 6 inch gong at 100yds is about minute of deer. (About the 7 ring on a 100 yd target.)

We have the advantage of modern steel, different styles and configurations of rifling. These designs were developed by extensive trials throughout the mid and late 19th century by the worlds best arms engineers. In addition we have the experiments of the likes of Dr Mann, Harry Pope, Greener, Neidner, etc. Harry Pope's muzzleloader barrels shot 2 inch TEN SHOT groups at 200 yds over a century ago. we can refer to their experiments regarding twist and velocity for best accuracy.

This provides a springboard for a "high degree of accuracy" Kneeling should produce ragged one hole groups at 50 yds for a "high degree of accuracy" Muzzleloaders are capable of pinpoint accuracy to 100 yds.

 

[matt denison]

flehto said:
So...am questioning the need for what I consider unnecessary "frills" in loads, "fussiness" in priming and the reasons why some feel they're necessary.

My opinion, the short one:

Everybody has a good day or a bad day at the range. I have, you have. One day you can't miss. The next day you are wondering what went wrong. On a bad day you start tweekeng to "fix" it. So you add an over powder wad and your group tightens up so now you think that you NEED that wad. Or you added a pinch to your 80 gr. load and put them all in the ten ring so now your load is exactly 82 grains. In reality it isn't the additions of frills that got you there it was the vagarities of the day you had, luck. But you are convinced that your gun won't shoot unless you use an overpowder wad and exactly 82 grains of powder. Oh, and the prime needs to be banked just so....


I also think Mr. Zimmer has valid point. But one important thing is being overlooked. Sights. To shoot a one hole group at 100 yards requires some incredible sights and a rock solid bench rest situation. Well, a lot more than that actually. I don't think flehto is head shooting squirels at 100 yards but to hit one at 20 yards in the head under practical hunting situations (no rest and estimated distances) is some pretty darn good shooting and obviously the gun is doing its job well.

 

[Claude Mathis]

I have put 5 into a postage stamp at 25 yds with my 32, offhand and didn't even place in the match.

I think what some here are saying is, they don't care about placing in a match, or even competing.

Some people shoot for their own enjoyment and don't care how they shoot, compared to someone else.

Take guitar playing as an analogy... Some play, but only for themselves. They don't care how they compare to anyone else, they don't want to be in a band, nor do they care what others think of their playing. They play good enough for their own enjoyment.

 

[Vaino]

Many years ago I started squirrel hunting w/ my .22 pump and in 1978 went out w/ my first made .45 flint LR. Went w/ a longtime friend who had a scoped .22 and he looked at my LR and said..."put it back in the trunk, we need some meat". Well, after a few hours we both came back to the car, he had 2 squirrels and I was lucky and had 5 {limit} and I didn't say a word, but he said... "you've got a big advantage w/ a .45, it's twice the diameter of a .22 and what could be a miss w/ the .22 would be a hit w/ the .45". He really did have a point....having just grazed a couple squirrel heads. By the way...he was an excellent shot and along w/ me, would never think of shooting a squirrel other than in the head. We really like to eat "all" the edible parts of a squirrel.....Fred

 

[zimmerstutzen]

The point of the OP as I understood it was a "high degree of accuracy" out of the box without tweaking. I merely take issue with the "high degree of accuracy" without tweaking part of it.

Some folks are great hunters, they shoot well enough to bring home the bacon. And I suppose that they equate meat with accuracy. Which I and many others do not.

I agree that some folks spend what seems like too much time trying to re-invent the wheel. They spend range hours trying combinations that have been found to be unsatisfactory decades earlier.

Frankly if you are happy with hitting a paper plate at 100 yds, good for you. But don't say that it is a "high degree of accuracy" It isn't. Maybe I am too fussy from years of target shooting. I used to shoot Lincoln's head out of pennies with a 22 at exhibitions, at 50 ft offhand. I was the top shot on my college team in a league having dozens of better competitors than I. Heck even the lowest shooter on the Penn State Girl's team beat me in matches. One of my buddies was a 1,000 yd world class competitors for years. His worst day now, is still better than I ever was.

It doesn't matter at all, if you don't care about competitions and matches and paper targets, just don't call a fairly average kneeling group a "high degree of accuracy"

 

[Vaino]

A "high degree of accuracy" is a relative term and also a very subjective one. ....to me it means accuracy that will kill the game that I'm hunting...whether it be "head shots" on squirrels or clean kills on deer and elk and any animals in between.

If competitive target shooting is your "game", that's a worthy endeavor and I for one, know the accuracy it takes to compete. But, the accuracy you demand isn't needed or wanted by most shooters and they're not willing to go through the necessary procedures and acquisition of that type of MLer to achieve that kind of accuracy. This isn't meant to be derogatory...but some would say it borders on obsession, but perhaps that's what it takes to compete in your league. That's not only true for competitive shooting, but for other competitive sports as well. Total dedication yields winners.

Shooting MLers should be an enjoyable experience, whether plinking, hunting, target shooting or competing in matches....just depends on what "rows your boat".

Don't think anyone said that a "high degree of accuracy" is possible "out of the box"....those are your words and possibly are mis-spoken? It seems to me, MLing rifles are very forgiving and really don't require a whole lot of "tweaking" to yield acceptable accuracy that satisfies many shooters.....Fred

 

[Col. Batguano]

Target shooting is done on the range.

Match shooting is done between your ears.

 

[Claude Mathis]

The point of the OP as I understood it was a "high degree of accuracy" out of the box without tweaking. I merely take issue with the "high degree of accuracy" without tweaking part of it.

I understand. I read his post a little differently.

He said; "Both of the above Mlers were accurate and "did the job" w/o a whole lot of complications....in fact I was amazed at the ease and simplicity of achieving such a high degree of accuracy."

I merely took it to mean that he was surprised that he achieved the degree of accuracy that he did get. Not necessarily that it was the "highest degree" or that it couldn't be better. A clue to me was where he put "did the job" in quotes. To me he was saying it was "good enough".

We're talking relative and subjective terms. :v

 

[Stumpkiller]

Target shooting is done on the range.

Match shooting is done between your ears.

Hunting is getting closer when your shooting may not be sufficient. :haha:

 

[petew]

I got into muzzle loaders to get away from the obsessive compulsive , only to find these Traditional comunities are very obsesive compulsive.
For me I am happy with the spirit of the traditional side, and leave the fine finicky stuff to those that thrive on it. {I think they make pills to control obsessive compulsive.}
I am happy to load , shoot and have fun. When I can expect a puff of smoke and a bang when I pull the trigger I get great enjoyment.
This type of shooting is suposed to be fun, first and foremost. Sharing what you have found to solve a real problem is what these forums should be about, but sadly more and more they are about splitting the atom, and coments are attacked by those that seem to have lost the spirit of what the traditional spirit should be.
I Hope the kids are not reading to many of the adult hunting /shooting forums, for if they are they are being well schooled in the art of internet bullying at it's finest.

It is refreshing to be able to find some of the very helpfull posts here, and elsewhere. It is also disapointing to see the constant bickering over nothing of real importance that plagues the forums.Every place seems to have it's resident helpfull posters and it's resident obsessive compulsive nit pickers.
It is not the end of the world if someone has a different experience or point ov view , and we don't need to take every post that is not in line with our experiences as a personal slight.
It's muzzle loading, just a simple way to shoot without getting all tore up over political corectness, and rocket science.
Pete

 

[russecv58]

I got into muzzle loaders to get away from the obsessive compulsive , only to find these Traditional comunities are very obsesive compulsive.
For me I am happy with the spirit of the traditional side, and leave the fine finicky stuff to those that thrive on it. {I think they make pills to control obsessive compulsive.}
I am happy to load , shoot and have fun. When I can expect a puff of smoke and a bang when I pull the trigger I get great enjoyment.
This type of shooting is suposed to be fun, first and foremost. Sharing what you have found to solve a real problem is what these forums should be about, but sadly more and more they are about splitting the atom, and coments are attacked by those that seem to have lost the spirit of what the traditional spirit should be.
I Hope the kids are not reading to many of the adult hunting /shooting forums, for if they are they are being well schooled in the art of internet bullying at it's finest.

It is refreshing to be able to find some of the very helpfull posts here, and elsewhere. It is also disapointing to see the constant bickering over nothing of real importance that plagues the forums.Every place seems to have it's resident helpfull posters and it's resident obsessive compulsive nit pickers.
It is not the end of the world if someone has a different experience or point ov view , and we don't need to take every post that is not in line with our experiences as a personal slight.
It's muzzle loading, just a simple way to shoot without getting all tore up over political corectness, and rocket science.
Pete

AMEN!

 

[Vaino]

Your "version" of what I said, is spot on....you're a very perceptive person. Didn't intend that this topic would be controversial and evidently it's not w/ most posters. Really do appreciate this "Forum" and it's influx of different ideas and opinions.....Fred