Need a starting load for my 12g side by side.

[ciffer]

I bought a percussion 12g side by side at a gun show a few months back and want to get it out now that the weather is decent. The gun has demascuss barrels and has been looked over by a gunsmith who said "looks good, just don't load it too heavy" and mentioned not using more than 80gr of FFg.

I have powder, lead shot, over powder cards, wads and over shot cards. now all I need is a starting load.

 

[jethro224]

Here is a chart that shows the approximate weight:volume for measuring your shot loads.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/195339/

My New Englander throws a nice pattern with 70 grains of 2F Goex, 4 OS cards, a 1oz (70 grain measure) of shot, and one more OS card. I run it down with a lubed patch over a jag.
That's a fairly light load that works well for clays and would work on doves if I could find any to shoot at during the open season. :haha:

 

[ciffer]

Why 4 over shot cards over the powder instead of over powder cards or wads? What is it I see people doing with a strip of pillow ticking?

My ultimate goal is to use this gun for turkey hunting but I haven't shot it yet and my season starts May 4th, so I am thinking I'll end up taking the 12g pump again this year.

 

[jethro224]

I had a 24 bore once that wouldn't shoot a decent pattern with thick cards or fiber wads so I tried 4 thin cards and it shot much better. The theory is that the thinner cards separate at firing and fly off in different directions while the thicker card or wad may blow thru the shot column and ruin the pattern.
Anyway, since then I just use a stack of thin cards instead of the thick one. Works well for me and I have less junk to sort thru when I load. :thumbsup:

 

[jethro224]

Oh, the strip of ticking is probably for loading ball. Cut at the muzzle. :idunno:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Be nice to the gun. Start using 60 grains( 2 1/4 Drams) of FFg powder, then an OP wad, then a 1/2 Cushion wad, lubed on the outside edge only, then a 1 oz. load of shot, followed by an OS card. This is a light load for a 12 gauge, but Until I had fired that gun many times, I would not increase either the shot load, or the amount of powder used. Read the two articles on Shotgun loads written by Bob Spenser, and V.M. Starr, on Bob Spenser's website,
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/

You will learn alot. Then go back and read the last couple of years of postings on this thread and forum.

A fEw years ago, Iron Jim Rackham posted several comments on a load he was using in a New England Style Fowler he had Mike Brooks make for him in 20 gauge. He used ONLY OS cards, putting 4 cards on top of the powder charge, then the shot, then 2 os cards. All the cards had off-center holes poked into them to allow air to flow through the cards to prevent Dieseling when he was trying to load his gun. Using only OS cards allowed him to go hunting, without worrying whether he enough of or the right combinations of wads for his gun for each shot. He posted pictures of his shot patterns, which were impressive. He also took several Grouse, which he proudly showed off. Its a different way to load your gun, but it also seemed to work quite well for him.

Oh, Jim put a small "ball" of lube between his 3rd, and 4th OS cards on top of the powder, so that the lube would be forced out to the sides of the card to lube the barrel as the shot was fired. I don't like having to carry little balls of lube, made of wax and oil. So, I prefer to grease my barrel with a lubed cleaning patch in front of the jag, when I run the two OS cards down the barrel and seat them on the shot. The cleaning patch comes out with the rod, and jag, and the lube protects the bore from rust during a hunt, while letting the lead pellets glide over the greased surface of the barrel, rather than leaving lead streaks on the walls of the bore, and flats on the lead pellets. The remaining lube softens the BP residue that follows the load, making it easy to clean before the next load is poured in the barrel.

Wads: OP wad= Over Powder Wad. I use Walter's Vegetable Fiber Wads, which you can by from Track of the Wolf, and other suppliers, including from Walters.

Cushion wads, can be bought from Track, and come in various thicknesses. Mostly they are cut from 1/2" thick celotex, a building material. I split the wads in 1/2 or even 1/3 to reduce the weight. Roll the edge of the wad in vegetable oil in a saucer, so you don't get too much oil in the wad.

Reducing the weight keeps the cushion wad from following the shot down range, and actually bumping the back of the shot column, cause a hole in the center of the pattern in some guns. The faster the velocity of a load, the more likely you will get a "donut hole" pattern if a thick wad is used.

OS Card= Over Shot Card, again available from Track and others. These are thin slick surfaced cards cut from Shirt Backs. The harder, slick surface is good for pushing the shot out the barrel, and for catching the air out the muzzle so that the card quickly drops away from the advancing load of shot.

My standard hunting load for my DB 12 gauge shotgun is 75 grains of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot. My barrels are cylinder bore, meaning there is no choke in them. There are, however, several ways to gain some choke effect in such a barrel by how you load the shot in them. BP shotguns, with Cylinder bores, are generally considered to be 25 yard guns, and folks are discouraged from attempting to take birds at much further distances. Some barrels have enough metal in the front end to allow " Jug Choking".

Just remember that if you do not use some kind of protection to prevent the lead pellets from leaving lead streaks in the bore, your patterns will suffer as the lead streaks build up. In addition to cleaning the gun with soap and water, you will also need to use a good modern Lead Solvent to clean the lead out of the barrel.

The most recent idea for a good "fix" of this problem is described below in a thread titled, .62 Colerain Turkey Choke barrels, on the index to this topic.

 

[dbutch]

ciffer....Use the pump this season..then start working up loads for next year!..I posted pic's of used pillow ticking cloth wads...this is used in a 62 cal. smooth bore -turkey choked ..the reason for the ticking wad was to reduce leading in the restricted barrel...

 

[ohio ramrod]

For both of my twelve gauges I use 75 grain FF ( or 65FFF is FF not available ), one 1/2 inch wad (or two 1/4), and a newspaper shot cartridge with 1 & 1/8 ounces of shot. I roll the newspaper around a wooden dowel three thicknesses, tie one end with kite string. Fill with shot, fold over and tie the second end. I just ram the shot cartridge in with the folded end last and do not use an over shot card.

 

[ciffer]

Thanks for all the tips. On a side note, I think I finally found a pair of #11 nipples for the gun; it seems that no one makes caps in the gun's original size, which is just slightly larger than #11.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Be nice to the gun. Start using 60 grains( 2 1/4 Drams) of FFg powder, then an OP wad, then a 1/2 Cushion wad, lubed on the outside edge only, then a 1 oz. load of shot, followed by an OS card. This is a light load for a 12 gauge, but Until I had fired that gun many times, I would not increase either the shot load, or the amount of powder used. Read the two articles on Shotgun loads written by Bob Spenser, and V.M. Starr, on Bob Spenser's website,
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/

You will learn alot. Then go back and read the last couple of years of postings on this thread and forum.

A fEw years ago, Iron Jim Rackham posted several comments on a load he was using in a New England Style Fowler he had Mike Brooks make for him in 20 gauge. He used ONLY OS cards, putting 4 cards on top of the powder charge, then the shot, then 2 os cards. All the cards had off-center holes poked into them to allow air to flow through the cards to prevent Dieseling when he was trying to load his gun. Using only OS cards allowed him to go hunting, without worrying whether he enough of or the right combinations of wads for his gun for each shot. He posted pictures of his shot patterns, which were impressive. He also took several Grouse, which he proudly showed off. Its a different way to load your gun, but it also seemed to work quite well for him.

Oh, Jim put a small "ball" of lube between his 3rd, and 4th OS cards on top of the powder, so that the lube would be forced out to the sides of the card to lube the barrel as the shot was fired. I don't like having to carry little balls of lube, made of wax and oil. So, I prefer to grease my barrel with a lubed cleaning patch in front of the jag, when I run the two OS cards down the barrel and seat them on the shot. The cleaning patch comes out with the rod, and jag, and the lube protects the bore from rust during a hunt, while letting the lead pellets glide over the greased surface of the barrel, rather than leaving lead streaks on the walls of the bore, and flats on the lead pellets. The remaining lube softens the BP residue that follows the load, making it easy to clean before the next load is poured in the barrel.

Wads: OP wad= Over Powder Wad. I use Walter's Vegetable Fiber Wads, which you can by from Track of the Wolf, and other suppliers, including from Walters.

Cushion wads, can be bought from Track, and come in various thicknesses. Mostly they are cut from 1/2" thick celotex, a building material. I split the wads in 1/2 or even 1/3 to reduce the weight. Roll the edge of the wad in vegetable oil in a saucer, so you don't get too much oil in the wad.

Reducing the weight keeps the cushion wad from following the shot down range, and actually bumping the back of the shot column, cause a hole in the center of the pattern in some guns. The faster the velocity of a load, the more likely you will get a "donut hole" pattern if a thick wad is used.

OS Card= Over Shot Card, again available from Track and others. These are thin slick surfaced cards cut from Shirt Backs. The harder, slick surface is good for pushing the shot out the barrel, and for catching the air out the muzzle so that the card quickly drops away from the advancing load of shot.

My standard hunting load for my DB 12 gauge shotgun is 75 grains of FFg, and 1 1/4 oz. of #5 shot. My barrels are cylinder bore, meaning there is no choke in them. There are, however, several ways to gain some choke effect in such a barrel by how you load the shot in them. BP shotguns, with Cylinder bores, are generally considered to be 25 yard guns, and folks are discouraged from attempting to take birds at much further distances. Some barrels have enough metal in the front end to allow " Jug Choking".

Just remember that if you do not use some kind of protection to prevent the lead pellets from leaving lead streaks in the bore, your patterns will suffer as the lead streaks build up. In addition to cleaning the gun with soap and water, you will also need to use a good modern Lead Solvent to clean the lead out of the barrel.

The most recent idea for a good "fix" of this problem is described below in a thread titled, .62 Colerain Turkey Choke barrels, on the index to this topic.

You got me confused on the "balls of lube " part Paul.

Just put some lube in an old air gun pellet tin and scoop some out with a finger :thumbsup:

Brits.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Very few present commercial lubes come in a state soft enough, or hard enough to roll into little "balls". Mostly, people mix Beeswax and oil to come up with a combination that will work easily, but hold its shape, and be easier to handle. The main problem I have run into is that Body heat will melt the balls if carried too close to the body, and I need to have a hunting pouch to carry them in any tin or other container to keep them cool enough. Then, you have to remember to keep the bag in a cool place- no direct sunlight sitting in the back window of your car or truck.

A ROYAL PITA, to my way of thinking. And it runs counter to Iron Jim Rackham's KISS process.

That is the second reason I came up with the idea of lubing the barrel AFTER SEATING the OS cards on the shot. The primary reason is to lube the bore so that the shot pellets slide over the bore, and do not rub off lead ON the bore walls.

I was worried that perhaps the grease would be rubbed off entirely by the OS cards and pellets, and OP wad, so there would not be sufficient lube on the barrel so soften fouling, but I was pleasantly surprised to find this is NOT the case.

A lube pellet between the 3rd and 4th OS cards behind the shot, doesn't lube the barrel to prevent leading of the bore. My way of doing this does, as does Makeumsmoke's recent posting describing how he makes shot cups from strips of ticking that have been lubed with a liquid(Vegetable or mineral oil) lube, so that the fabric sticks to the sides of the bore long enough for him to pour the shot down into the " cup". The thick mattress ticking ( .018"-.020") keeps the pellets from touching the bore at all, and the lube in the fabric greases the bore sufficiently to soften the residue that follows.

The Shotcup goes on to provide some choke affect to the patterns, which my method did not contempt. I did get more pellets in my patterns greasing the bore after seating the OS cards, but that was because the outer pellets did not rub flats on the pellets by rubbing lead streaks in the bore, and those pellets then stay "In the pattern" where they fall off, and out within the first 20 yards otherwise.

Paul