Need Advice on Stock Staining

[George Hoskins]

Well folks after a long hard slog (3 years)I am finally in the home stretch with my 50 cal Lancaster build. I started this week to do some test patches of my stains on the extra wood from the stock, and as usual the experiment caused more questions than they answered.Here is what I am working with: 4 colors of Laurel Mtn Forge stain (Cherry, maple, nut brown and american walnut). I plan on sealing and top coating with Tru-oil. I have aqua fortis and lye available. The overall effect I am trying to achieve is slight red undertones with a medium (not too dark)overall look.So here are the questions. With regards to aqua fortis, it gives a nice brown to the stock but it is a little too dark. Can it be sanded back to lighten the overall look? Is stain normally used over af as the test patches I ran were very dark.The lye test patches were a lot lighter even with the stain added but when I added the inital lye wash there were areas that remained white (instead of going honey color) and I am not sure how this will affect the stain. The best color variations where when I added stain directly to the raw wood.The maple seemed to give a moderate amount of red but I found the cherry a little too deep red.Can these stains be "eased" back by sanding or steel wooling? Which gives the best exposure of the rays in the wood. I was under the impression af did that but as I say it's a little too dark for my liking.Will the stain directly on the wood give good exposure to the rays? My test blocks didn't have enough rays to check this. Any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated. Gotta git this gun done so I can move on to other projects. Thanks for all your help. Cheers

 

[Spikebuck]

Green Horn: I just did a project and used Dangler's Reddish Brown. It might be what you're looking for. I also put an orange toner over it that put a slight orange tint in the light areas, but in the following post I have a picture of the stock with just the Reddish-Brown applied...though it's not finished with oil, which changes the appearance. That is also a couple of coats, so you can have it lighter or darker. Also a bunch of pics after the orange toner is on and finished, but doesn't sound like that's necessarily what you want.

Take a look. You might want to peruse pictures of the guns people built and when you see the color combo you want, ask them how they got there.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1259695/

 

[rich pierce]

If you have stained with aquafortis and it is too brown/black, you can try a wash with hydrogen peroxide to see if this reddens it up. Try it on a scrap piece first.

 

[Col. Batguano]

The color AF goes on is pretty much gray. Ugly ugly ugly, It's the heat from the stove you hold it over that turns it first golden, then orange, then red, then brown.

Make sure to do your wash with baking soda, and household ammonia afterwards to neutralize the acid.

 

[Robby]

I have used AQ on a lot of gun stocks and have never seen such a display of color Col.! What kind of acid are you using? :shocked2:
Robby

 

[Col. Batguano]

I used AF from TOTW. The color comes in waves. The longer you hold it, the more the color, and in that order. It comes pretty fast. I held it a little too long in the lock area on one gun, and it actually caught fire! The thinner areas (barrel inlet, lock) get heat from more directions than the thicker ones.

 

[Robby]

Are you using an open flame? I use to use an old hot plate stood on its side, my thinking was that it more closely replicated what might have been done back in the day.
Sorry for the side track Green Horn.
Robby

 

[Lock Nut]

Laurel mt stains are alchohol based so you could dilute them down abit. Try on a scrap piece and work your way up instead of trying to sand color off. If you apply all those colors full strength over one another in what ever order, you'll probably end up with mud. It's best to just stick with one color and maybe tint with another.
I find that stains don't bring out the curl like AF does. One can use AF and tint with stain after it has been neutralized. Just gotta experiment abit.

 

[necchi]

Haven't really got an answer have ya?

I too have used a bunch of AF and it always does end up dark, That's what AF does.
The Penn build I'm working on now is M2 and has a little curl. I like how AF makes curl "pop" and dance in the light, but I want this build red.

I'm far enough away from staining so it's not an immediate worry, but I'd like to hear how the light stains (LMF Cherry as example) will affect the way light sunlight makes the durl move,,?

 

[Col. Batguano]

Stains have tint particles that lodge in the recesses of the grain on the top layer of the wood, as they are suspended in the carrier volatiles. The more open the grain, the more of them lodge (think about red oak). Dyes are dissolved color, and penetrate more evenly. They have a tendency to "wash out" grain features, but they penetrate open grain more deeply than the closed grain. If you wish to "layer" your dyes, you need to use different carriers for them. The only ones I know of are either alcohol or water based. If you apply say a alcohol based red and a water based yellow, to get orange, you could redden or yellow them up later by going over the color you got with the appropriate color's carrier.

AF works mostly like a dye. Once it's in the wood, the heat causes a chemical reaction to oxidize the dissolved iron. Since more of the stuff penetrates the open cells of the wood than the closed cells that's why you get the dark stuff coming out, since it's deeper in the wood, but the variations are only visible at certain angles. That's why it seems to vary based upon viewing angle.

 

[Vaino]

Use caution w/ the LMF cherry....it's a "strong" stain. My first Bucks County LR { can be seen on TOW's "kits", Bucks County} was stained w/ the LMF cherry and a lot of "blotting" w/ alcohol rags were used to tone it down. Finally used a top coat of "Super Stain" after a wet sanding....the "Super Stain" penetrates the finish. Use the LMF sparingly and well diluted...I applied it "out of the bottle", sorry to say....Fred

 

[tallbear]

I too have used a bunch of AF and it always does end up dark, That's what AF does.

I must respectfully disagree,aqua-fortis does not always end up dark.

Mitch Yates

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I agree Mitch and beautiful color on those. I have found the store bought Wahkon Bay stuff which also has other stuff in it to be way too dark.
I personally use 5:1 nitric acid with no metal desovled in it. I do not neutralize either. It may turn on me in a hundred years but we have 25 and 30 year examples that are the same as when they were done. I apply the nitric, heat with a gun and then put on hardware linseed and add the heat again to blend the stubborn areas without charring

 

[Vaino]

Have tested Wahkon Bay AF and it comes out very dark. Have many bottles of Kettenburg's AF and it comes out too light. Disolved some ferric nitrate crystals in alcohol and it comes out a nice reddish brown. Might use it on the next Bucks County....Fred

 

[necchi]

I've been using Wahkon, the olde stuff from when William still made it, bought a bunch from a shop close out.
Thanks for the tip about the LMF Cherry Fred, I'll thin it goodly and try it on the butt cut off first. I'm thinking I'll be adding a bit of Light brown I have just to tone down the bright red but that's all about the samples before the main job,,

 

[blackdog of vt]

I've had the same results as fred, the newer af is not really good looking but ferric nitrate is controlable and a nice red brown like this.

Lye, should go gold and slightly reddish. I dont know what kind you are using but it does get weaker over time. This is stained withn lye.

 

[mikemeteor]

Disolved some ferric nitrate crystals in alcohol and it comes out a nice reddish brown. ....Fred

+1. not too dark at all.
In fact I have been darkening the results from the process above a tad further, with a diluted stain overcoat.
...mike

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I can tell you what won't work well..., anything designed for furniture alone. Something like a Minwax tends to give you "muddy" results on the wood, especially when there is figure in the wood. If you had something like a birch, basswood, or poplar trunk or chest, yes, but not for a gun.

When working on plain wood gunstocks, or restoring some modern military rifles, I have found that Fiebing's medium brown leather dye is rather good. These were generally unfigured stocks as well, but no need to use "the good stuff" on a plain piece of wood, right?

LD

 

[tallbear]

Just so everyones clear when talking about aqua-fortis we are talking about three different products in this thread.

product #1)Whakon bays aquafortis which is really aqua regia which is made of nitric acid,hydrocloric acid,water with iron disolved.

product #2)Home brewed aqua-fortis(nitrate of iron stain)which is what I use which is nitric acid,water with iron dissolved.

product #3)Nitrate of iron stain made by dissolving ferric nitrate crystals dissolved in water.

Mitch

 

[Vaino]

The colors you're achieving w/ your "home brewed AF" are beautiful. Don't think any commercial AF can duplicate....ferric nitrate crystals disolved in alcohol would be the closest.Thanks for posting those beautiful rifles....Fred