need advice

[jared185]

Hello im new to the forum and relatively new to muzzleloaders I have shot muzzleloaders my whol life and own a few but never got technical with them. Im looking to shoot longer range with them. Im pretty advanced with centerfire rifles, but the problem is that rifles have got old and not very challnging. I have 3 loaders now the thompson center treehawk the white mountain carbine and the new englander all t/c products what would be the better long rang loader and to what range would it be accurate.

 

[jamesthomas]

Round balls or Conicals? How long of a range are you talking about? 200 yards? If you want to shoot at longer ranges than that most folk use 45-70, 45-90's,etc. Blackpowder Cartrige Rifles. A muzzleloader person with good eyes and a peep sight MIGHT be able to shoot a accurate group with those rifles at 150 to 200 yards with no wind. (and it depends on what you think is a "accurate" group,6" to 12" maybe?) but anything farther than that, the wind and rapidly falling velocity makes shooting a accurate group iffy to near impossible at best. Thats JMHO of course.

 

[necchi]

Welcome.
You've got a tuff mix there for "long range".
The Treehawk and the White Mountian both have the faster twist for Elongated projectiles (not round ball),
But they both also have/are shorter carbine models that aren't conductive to long range.

The New englander is a 1-48 that'll shoot round ball better but the round ball has a limit of 125-150yrds as the rainbow trajectory of the sphere is real.
Open sights are a limiting factor slaso.

A little more info about your desires would help us.

But many of us came to ML's from the same back ground you describe, getting bored with the simplicity of CF and wanting the challange again.

 

[Little Wattsy]

Hello im new to the forum and relatively new to muzzleloaders I have shot muzzleloaders my whol life and own a few but never got technical with them. Im looking to shoot longer range with them. Im pretty advanced with centerfire rifles, but the problem is that rifles have got old and not very challnging. I have 3 loaders now the thompson center treehawk the white mountain carbine and the new englander all t/c products what would be the better long rang loader and to what range would it be accurate.

I sence that you are comming at this primarily from a hunters perspective. (That was here I started out, in fact I asked almost the exact same question on this forum about 6 years ago)
There ARE some guns and loads that will group well "long range" but when we introduce the realities of the "deer woods" we have some built in limitations... The biggest is the fidgety target and opensights. The second is the trajectory of the MLer.
With Deer (or elk)much past 100 yards with open sights and it s starts getting squirly pretty fast.. And at 100 yards the bottom starts to REALLY fall out of a BP load. Rough trajectory: dead on at 25 yards = 3" high at 50 yards = near dead on at 100 yards = 12" low at 125 yards using standard loads...
So, with this info we look at caliber. The .54 has, in my opinion, the most optimum trajectories for "longer range hunting" AND it can be done either with RB's or connicals.
RB's are right there to 100 yards, maybe a tad further like 115 yards. Connicals are good to say 125 yards MAYBE a tad further with a range finder and lots of experiance/practice in "hold over" shooting to say MAYBE 140 - 150 yards
BUT all that is within the limitations of open sights ..... SO
In my opinion you are looking at 100 yard guns either way in all reality. Enhanced with the use of the .54 for RB's or connicals for a .50 or bigger.
Lastly RB's are easy to make and cheap to produce along with being a a smidge easier on the shoulder allowing for MORE practice and familuarity with your gun.
My personal journey went through 4 or 5 .50's and connicals to a .54 Renegade to a .54 Lyman GPR to my now ever trusty .54 Renegade with an after market 32" 1/60 twist RB barrel (.535 ball, .015 patch, and 90grains of FFG) and I feel VERY good about it to 100 yards which is about as far as I would personaly shoot ANY gun at game with open sights.

 

[jared185]

Thanks for all of the information. Yes I am a major deer hunter, and hunt a field with about 750yards of shootable area. I am a stealthy hunter meaning I usually sit still on the groind in a sniper suit I think its called a guilly suit and it works ive killed numerous bucks usually from about 300-500 yard shots. Give or take a little. But its so simple not much of a challenge. I really like the new englander and planned on round balls with 90-110 grains of powder. But I mean accurate as in a 6" group and id like to get to a distance of about 200-225 yards any advice on loads or ball type will be appreciated.

 

[jared185]

Also all of my muzzleloaders are .50 calibers

 

[Rifleman1776]

like to get to a distance of about 200-225 yards

Please note the previous messages about trajectory and energies beyond 100 yards for a round ball. The round ball has a ballistic efficiency almost as good as a thrown brick. It is reliable to about 100 yards then there is, figuratively speaking, nothing left.
With the huge rainbow trajectory at long distances the ball is, essentially, falling down towards a target, not coming at it. Meaning, being sighted for that range is essential. And even more essential is knowing the exact range of the target. Closer than you think the ball will fall behind target. Further away, the ball will fall short of the target.
There are traditional ml rifles that will work at those distances. But, they require the use of a long bullet and special rifling. PRB is an up close gun.

 

[jdkerstetter]

I agree. This kind of shooting with a muzzleloader requires specialized equipment and many hours of load development and practice.

You may consider selling the 3 guns you now have and put the money into another rig. It will be no small investment.

To the right shooter, with the right equipment and dedication, it is quite doable.

Do a google search for long range muzzleloader matches and seek out those people. The National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association is a great resorce.

Good Luck and Enjoy, J.D.

 

[Roguedog]

Jared,
It seems like you might be asking a tad much out of a blackpowder rifle if you're looking for a 200-225 yard gun. In my opinion, their not really designed for that. Most anyone on this board will tell you that 100 yards is a fairly long shot with these guns and closer is a heck of lot better. I'm not saying that you can't shoot further than that and still kill something, but it would seem that 200 yards with a roundball is not realistic. To me, part of the fun is getting close and making a good shot. Within their effective range, these guns do quite a good job at putting game on the ground. Maybe you can sneak just a little bit closer across those fields.

Jeff

 

[jamesthomas]

If you want to shoot out to 200+ yards I would sell the guns you have now and start looking at the Black Powder Cartridge rifles. Only they will retain enough energy at those ranges to humanely kill a deer. A roundball or a conical will just be falling on the target with too little energy left for a humane kill. And getting a decent sight picture at those ranges with iron sights on a deer sized target thats probably moving around, well, as said, its a tough thing to do. I would'nt try it even if my eyes were 20/15.

 

[ihuntsnook]

I don't hunt long distances, but I have a .50 caliber rifle here with a Green Mountain LRH barrel, one inch across the flats. I believe the twist is one in 28. How far would you shoot a conical bullet -- say a REAL or Lymans Great Plains bullet on deer sized game? Could it shoot 45 70 type distances or no? Not to get off the topic, but I thought this might apply.

 

[TFoley]

I don't hunt long distances, but I have a .50 caliber rifle here with a Green Mountain LRH barrel, one inch across the flats. I believe the twist is one in 28. How far would you shoot a conical bullet -- say a REAL or Lymans Great Plains bullet on deer sized game? Could it shoot 45 70 type distances or no? Not to get off the topic, but I thought this might apply.

There is a whole world of difference between shooting a REAL bullet and a 500gr solid lead out of a Sharps out to 800-900 yards, or often as much as 1000 yards for some BPCRs.

The retained velocity and resultant muzzle energy energy and resultant of a Sharps bullet, even at the shorter ranges of around 200-300 yds, far outweighs that of the REAL bullet. Like the man said, velocity+weight = muzzle energy = whomp-down power - a quality all of its own.

tac

 

[TFoley]

If you want to shoot out to 200+ yards I would sell the guns you have now and start looking at the Black Powder Cartridge rifles. Only they will retain enough energy at those ranges to humanely kill a deer. A roundball or a conical will just be falling on the target with too little energy left for a humane kill. And getting a decent sight picture at those ranges with iron sights on a deer sized target thats probably moving around, well, as said, its a tough thing to do. I would'nt try it even if my eyes were 20/15.

This.

tac

 

[Bob in iowa]

You say you want a challange, but you can hit a deer at +200 yds with a CF.
Here's a challange-
Get your ML sighted in at 25 yds and never shoot a deer over 50 yds. Stalk him instead of waiting for him to wander by. Use only open sights and round balls. I think you'll feel challanged.

 

[Mad Professor]

I don't hunt long distances, but I have a .50 caliber rifle here with a Green Mountain LRH barrel, one inch across the flats. I believe the twist is one in 28. How far would you shoot a conical bullet -- say a REAL or Lymans Great Plains bullet on deer sized game? Could it shoot 45 70 type distances or no? Not to get off the topic, but I thought this might apply.

Idaho Ron , member here uses that barrel out west with peep sights and heavy conicals and hits things at 200 yds. Search some of his posts.

I have the same barrel for some of my TCs and a 385 gr buffalo bullet works real well. But I'm in the east and seldom get shots over 100yds. I sight that barrel for dead on a 100yds and its about 3" high at 65 yds. If you want sight in for 200 yds you'll want better sights and your POI will be WAY high at 100-150 yds,

 

[Mad Professor]

Thanks for all of the information. Yes I am a major deer hunter, and hunt a field with about 750yards of shootable area. I am a stealthy hunter meaning I usually sit still on the groind in a sniper suit I think its called a guilly suit and it works ive killed numerous bucks usually from about 300-500 yard shots. Give or take a little. But its so simple not much of a challenge. I really like the new englander and planned on round balls with 90-110 grains of powder. But I mean accurate as in a 6" group and id like to get to a distance of about 200-225 yards any advice on loads or ball type will be appreciated.

If you want a beanfield ML hunting rifle look into a Gibbs or Whitworth.

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/scheda-prodotto.asp/l_en/idpr_6/rifles-gibbs-gibbs-standard.html

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/shooting/lrml/technique/gibbs.htm

 

[Little Wattsy]

I don't hunt long distances, but I have a .50 caliber rifle here with a Green Mountain LRH barrel, one inch across the flats. I believe the twist is one in 28. How far would you shoot a conical bullet -- say a REAL or Lymans Great Plains bullet on deer sized game? Could it shoot 45 70 type distances or no? Not to get off the topic, but I thought this might apply.

Idaho Ron , member here uses that barrel out west with peep sights and heavy conicals and hits things at 200 yds. Search some of his posts.

I have the same barrel for some of my TCs and a 385 gr buffalo bullet works real well. But I'm in the east and seldom get shots over 100yds. I sight that barrel for dead on a 100yds and its about 3" high at 65 yds. If you want sight in for 200 yds you'll want better sights and your POI will be WAY high at 100-150 yds,

Ditto this....

AND... As you get into this allow yourself to go where the equipment takes you. It took me three years and 6 guns to settle in to where I am now just because it took my brain that much to get from hunting a 7mm Mag to a patched RB...
:thumbsup:

 

[nkbj]

For hunting purposes I think the best you will get out of a TC .50 caliber side lock rifle will be an approximation of a 45-70, if you use the heaviest bullet and powder charge that you can get to shoot accurately enough (whatever that may be). One way or the other you can have a lot of fun finding out what works!

 

[asbrown]

Why not challenge yourself by first building your rifle. PRL has an English Rigby kit, paired with a fast twist barrel for long conicals (found at TOTW) youd definately have a rifle capable of 200+ yd shots with open sights. Whitworth rifles(with hex bores) were capable of 20" groups out to 1000yds ( I think from a bench vice).As to your ability to make the shot, it all comes down to knowing and believing in your equipment, and plenty of practice. Good luck and good shooting.

 

[jared185]

See this is why I asked. I dont mind to stalk the deer or anything I was wanting more or less a distance figure of how far you could realistically shoot accurately consistantly. I am a good shot with a mil dot scope and cf rifle. But the challenge or lack thereof is killing me. I actually am in the process of buying a t/c omega z5 .50 cal, which I believe would be more accurate. But I really like the idea of being more stealthy and stalking the animal. That does seem more like a challenge. And I like using iron sights. I dont mind using a scope if I have to though. What kind of charge should I put in the t/c new englander is there a sweet spot for accuracy or is that something u have to figure out on your own