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Need help analyzing my first outing

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nathan.davis

36 Cal.
Joined
Aug 22, 2014
Messages
61
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2
Location
Springfield Mo
I just returned from the range and my first outing with my new .62 caliber flintlock. I thoroughly love this "new to me" sport. It is a Jim Chambers gun with a Rice 42" barrel and 1:66 twist.

For patch lube, I used 1 part Murphy's oil to 3 parts windshield washing fluid. Between each shot, I swabbed out the barrel with the lube, turned the patch around and swabbed it out a second time. So the barrel was consistently fairly clean between each shot.
I started out by trying different patches that I brought with me. The store bought .015 wonderlube patches were blown to shreds. So I tried some .018 ticking patches. They suffered numerous holes, but they at least remained together. Then I tried some thicker pillow ticking from Walmart. The photos below show that the two samples outlasted the other two, but still suffered a couple of small holes in each patch. I think that the holes might be cut from the rifling, not a result of burn holes. At least, I don't see burn marks around the holes. However, the muzzle looks like it has been cut to slowly taper into the rifling, easing the ball into the riffling. So it shouldn't be cutting the patch, although the patches definitely show a couple small holes, exactly opposite each other. Since this is a brand new barrel, I'm hoping that the barrel wear will eventually enable the patches to survive without any holes. These patches are .024 thick pillow ticking. I washed the ticking with soap, one time on the gentle cycle. Now I wonder if I should be washed it a second or third time. But if the patches are not burning through, then the number of washings probably doesn't really affect anything.

All my shots were made with .61 round balls.
]Walmart pillow ticking patch #1[/url]
]Walmart pillow ticking patch #2[/url]

Once the patches seemed to marginally survive the shots, I started to try different loads. Some of the members of this forum with .62 rifles indicated that they found the sweet spots between 110 to 120 grains. So I started 5 shot groups at 100 grains, proceeding in 10 grain increments up to 140 grains. The photos below show the results.
]100 grains at 50 yards[/url]
]110 Grains at 50 yards[/url]
]120 Grains at 50 yards[/url]
]130 Grains at 50 yards[/url]
]140 Grains at 50 yards[/url]

On advice from a friend, I made all shots using a shoulder mounted recoil pad. That was very good advice. To see the difference, I tried one shot without it. I'll never do that again!!!! But with the recoil pad, I shot all day long without any discomfort.

On the 130 grain target, I flinched on the last shot of the group, resulting in a round that hit outside the outer ring. So I consider that round as an anomaly. If I reject that round, then the 130 grain target group and the 120 grain target groups seem to show approximately the same results. However the 110 and 140 grain groups also look almost as good as the 120 and 130 groups.

It's hard to know what load is the best. I even wonder if the differences might be in the noise. What advice do you guys have? This is all new to me, so I don't have experience on which to rely.

For hunting, I assume that I'll need a lube that will last longer than the windshield washing fluid with Murphy's soap. At least, it seems to dry out after about 10 minutes, so I assume that I should use something that lasts longer. Crisco sounds like a possibility for a hunting load.
 
There are a zillion recipe`s for lube out there, but you're right. You want something that is oil or fat based and won't dry out, and won't attract moisture. Alcohol and water-based ones dry too quickly, and water based ones will rust your bore in the breach area if you leave them in all day, or longer.
 
I just tried to compute the average CEP for each group. The average CEP for each:
100 grain group CEP= 1.38 inches
110 grain group CEP= 1.55 inches
120 grain group CEP= 1.15 inches
130 grain group CEP= 1.375 inches *excludes the 1 shot in which I flinched
140 grain group CEP= 1.39 inches
 
I shoot 70 grains in my 62. No wonder YOU need a recoil pad. That is a punishing load. I am hoping that who ever told you to use those loads chokes on their next cup of coffee. The only way I would load that heavy would if I was hunting griz. Go to 70 grs and enjoy your new rife gun. And work up from there. Just my thoughts on this. I HATE fools who tell New comers to load heavy just for the heck of it.or they were hoping you would give up and sell your gun cheap. To say again I HATE THESE FOOLS WHO DO STUPID S€¥T LIKE THIS.Nice way to discourage folks. :2
 
I just reread your post are YOU a spammer. 140 grs 24thousands patch and a 61thousands ball. To load that you would need 16 pound sledge hammer to load that in a 62 caliber.
If this is out of line please delete. I do not what to start a peeing contest.
 
I don't mind the big loads, but I'll happily try the smaller loads and see what the groups are like.

I feel absolutely amazed that I could shoot a 5 shot group with a 1.15" CEP at any load.

The human limit of detection for someone with 20/20 vision is 1' arc. That translates into 1 inch at 100 yds, or .5 inch at 50 yards. That explains why the average person can't differentiate between two separate bullet holes at 50 yards when they are less than .5" apart. Of course, added to that human limitation is the limitation of the relatively broad front blade sight that also masks small differences. At 50 yards, it usually masks at least .5 inch of the target. So the same 1' arc problem exists with seeing it versus the target. Add the problem of target jitter to that. For instance, when I sight by 30-06 with a scope at a target, I can see the cross-hairs jitter whenever I touch the gun. At 50 yards, the average person adds about .25 inch of jitter whenever they touch the gun. So these three human factors add over 1 inch of error before the shooter ever pulls the trigger.

These flintlocks are truly amazing. I have 20/20 vision, but With simple iron sights, the flintlock still approaches the human limits. That is, the main limitation is not the gun, but me. I just cannot get over that any barrel maker can make them so accurate. And they were doing this in the mid-1700's!
 
I am no spammer. The patch seems like it would be too thick, but it also compresses to a lot less than the non-compressed thickness. It just fits snuggly. Well, my spelling isn't too good but I never was one for spelling.
 
Hmmm. You bring up a great point, though. Maybe this explains why I'm getting some cut marks on the patches? I'm unsure what to do about it, though. I tried a thinner patch and it suffered numerous holes--see below:


So the thinner patch didn't seem to work out as good.
 
I also tried a linen patch at .015. It seemed to do fairly well--see photo below. But it also showed a couple of small holes. Even so, it fared almost as well as the thicker cotton ticking.
]linen patch[/url]
 
take a strip of your patch material lubed and short start your ball. pull it back out and see if your patching is cut.
 
Great idea! Why couldn't I have thought of that?

I just got back from trying your idea. I short started a ball, and the patch came back out without any cuts on it. So maybe the holes are caused by burning? They don't look darkened like a burn, but you would think that the cutting would start as much at the muzzle as anywhere else.
 
Even a mildly eroded barrel can fray patches. I found out the hard way with a 30 year old CVA rifle. The bore was pitted and there was not much I could do to make it shoot accurately-luckily I found a replacement barrel. Hopefully this is burn through and not ripping from a rough bore.
 
My new Rice barrel .58 cal. had the same problem of cut/burned through patches. I tried many of the suggestions from this forum, but had the best results using a lubed leather wad. My groups tightened up & patches became almost re-usable. I have nowhere near the experience as many on the forum who claim that wad should not be necessary, only a lubed patch. I'm just stating what worked for me. And, there have been a few other posters who claimed the same thing. A mantra, on this forum, is that every barrel is different...
Just keep trying.
Paul
 
Well I must be a spammer too! I use a .030 denim patch with a .610 ball. I takes a good rap to start, but goes down fine in a clean barrel. Heck, I use a .035 denim patch with a .530 ball in my new .54 flintlock. With a dead soft lead ball; the short starter will enable the ball to engage the rifling, and the patch to press into the lead. My deep groove, round bottom rifling really likes a thick patch.
 
That's interesting. Explain the process a little more because I am unfamiliar with it.

Is the leather wad simply a single layer of leather cut to the size of the bore, and inserted just ahead of the patch? How do you keep the wad from folding over in the barrel when you ram everything down?
 
You had a good first outing...congrats!
Are you working up a hunting or target load?
for grins start at 70 gr. loads and work up.
try a leather-homemade over powder wad or a 1/8 nitro card.
I have found that when I get a patch weave imprint on a pulled round ball this will be a load that shoots well.
When this combination is found you will swab the bore as you drive the rb down on the powder.
Just more food for thought.
Take your time.... change only one of the loading components at a time.....keep notes.
Keep it fun..You will find your happy load.
 
I apologize to any one that took my rant to heart. I am not a technical type shooter But to me some of. This dose not add up. I have been a trial and error kind of shooter.this what I added up. 610+ 24+24=658 into a 620 hole. What am I doing wrong. With a 620 hole 2x8 thousands rifling = 636. It is a known fact that if you have to use excessive force to load soft lead r/b you will deform the round ball which will effect the path of flight of the ball. Which will effect on grouping on target. This is all I have to say on this.
Again I apologize cuz sometimes I am an *****.
 
Here is a .530 ball I started into my .54 rifle. The denim actually measured .034. You can easily see the impression of the rifling on the ball. Except where the grooves are indented in the ball; there is no deformation or out of roundness I can measure. The measurement from on side of the ball to the other, at the indents, is .517. My patches come out as good as new with a 100 gr. load.

.530 ball by okawbow, on Flickr
 
No offence taken by anyone on this forum. I'm a retired psychologist so you cannot imagine the stuff I've heard that makes the comments on this forum look so tame. I've enjoyed hearing the wide diversity of perspectives in this forum.

I shot up almost all my rb's today, but as soon as my new order arrives, I'm going to try your recommendation for some smaller loads. Your insight and experience is what I seek in this forum. And I'm especially keen on trying that lubed leather wad.
 
Couple of thoughts.
Judging by where the holes are located in your patches, I agree it's more likely the still sharp land edges or muzzle edge is probably the culprit here. This will smooth itself out with use, or you can put a small wad of #0000 steel wool on a jag and run it up and down the barrel 100 or so times to start the process.

When it comes to blown patches with big charges, the simplest solution I know is to run down a separate patch before you load the patched ball. We used to buy the next size smaller pre-lubed patches and just slip one down. They prevent the powder blast from scorching the ball patch long enough to get the load out the muzzle. I switched to leather years ago and did away with all the patch worries in one fell swoop! More expensive but they're usually good enough to reuse! :wink:
 
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