Need help identifying an old Muzzleloader

[chukardogs]

Hello, I'm new to this forum and have very little experience posting anything anywhere. I'll try to keep this post as short as posible and only include the needed specifics. I've just retired recently and I now have some time to deal with some items or projects that have sat idle for years. I actually started this process many many years ago and got no where. I found some very knowledgeable people that sent me in what I'm sure were the right directions but I ran in to dead ends on all avenues. Eventually I ran out of time and enthusiasm.
So here I go again. My family inherited an old muzzleloader in the late 60s. My father (with a 9 year old (me) tagging along) used this ML one time in the fall of 1971 and took a nice (large bodied Northeastern Washington) Whitetail buck. The gun was then cleaned up and at that time hung in the down stairs floor boards and finally, 30 or so years ago it was cleaned again and put in a gun safe where it has sat unused since.
This ML is obviously old and has been carried around in the wilds a bit. It's pretty beat up and been broken in a few places and possibly a few times. It has a few unique markings that may or may not mean anything to anyone. It's a percussion and I believe a 40 Caliber. I've attached 3 photos of the unique inscriptions on the barrel and the markings on the end of the barrel. I have another inscription that is small enough that I can't get a decent picture of it. It starts on the breach end (top) of the barrel. It ends at the J of the J. R. LOY or LOV seen in one of the attachments. It reads (I think) in very small letters (L) OSTIF U or V N E or F I or L It can be seen fairly clearly in the attachment of the inscription J. R. LOV
So that's it. At this time without disassembling the gun completely, these are the only things I know for sure

. I know from the earlier attempt that the H. E. DIMICK & Co. is a company that was in St. Louis that provided parts to gunsmiths who built muzzleloaders. I know nothing about the barrel. It could be the entire gun was put together in pieces by some Joe in his basement. The inscriptions are pretty unique and someone may have seen something similar on another gun or have seen something in a book maybe. I have more photos if anyone needs to see more of the ML.
Any other information that can tell me more about the historical significance, if there is any, of this item will be much appreciated, thank you for your time. Warren

 

[TreeMan]

Probably need to post a few more pics including the butt plate, patch box, nose cap and full rifle.

 

[chukardogs]

 

[chukardogs]

Thanks, I wasn't sure if there were restri tions or not. I was trying to condense it a bit. Hope this helps.

 

[pilot]

Nice rifle!

 

[Grenadier1758]

@chukardogs,

You re correct. H. E. Dimick, was a gun maker and lock builder in St. Louis and was a contemporary of the Hawken Brothers. A rifle built by Dimick or in his gun shop would have the H E DIMICK ST LOUIS stamp on the barrel.

Reading from the entry in the book, "Missouri Gunsmiths to 1900" by Victor A. Paul, the entry for Dimick has a list of employees and partners. None of the employees of H. E. Dimick have a name similar to the name stamped on the barrel. It is likely that the barrel maker's name is stamped on the bottom flat of the barrel with the names on the top flat being names of owners of the rifle.

Dimick is known to have been the agent for other area gunsmiths. In an ad in the "Missouri Republican" of 5-11-1854, Dimick advertises "All the parts used in making guns, rifles and pistols in the forged, filed and finished state".

I did not find any reference to a J. R. Lov... or Baraloo in the directory of Missouri gunsmiths.

 

[plmeek]

It may be a parts rifle that was built late 19th or early 20th century.

The oddest thing I see is the cap box is on backwards. The small end should point towards the lock, not the butt.

The trigger guard is more in the style of a Kentucky/Pennsylvania trigger guard and not a typical Dimick guard.

The fish belly on the bottom of the butt stock is odd for a Dimick rifle or even a St. Louis rifle.

The half octagon and half round barrel wasn't common in the period that Dimick worked. You see them more on cartridge rifles.

Everything looks old and used, so it was stocked a long time ago, but not necessarily by a gunsmith that regularly made muzzleloaders.

 

[Notchy Bob]

The rifle looks like a genuine antique to me, although it does have some unusual features, as noted by plmeek.

Horace Dimick was a very well known St. Louis gunmaker and dealer, as discussed by Grenadier 1758.

About the only thing I can add is that the inscription on the barrel looks like Baraboo to me. There is a city in Wisconsin named Baraboo, and I'm wondering if a search of old directories might reveal a J.R. Lov (or Loy) in that town.

There is a researcher and builder named Ray Nelson who posts regularly on the ALR forum who has done a great deal of research on guns and rifles of the upper Midwest. I think he might even be based in Wisconsin. If you register with the American Longrifles (ALR) forum and post your query there, Mr. Nelson may respond.

Another possible resource might be Curtis Johnson, who wrote the definitive works on gunsmiths of Illinois. I am pretty sure he would have knowledge of other gunsmiths in other surrounding states. I don't specifically recall seeing any of his posts on any of the forums, and I don't know how to contact him. You could probably track him down if you put your mind to it, though.

You have an interesting, if unusual rifle, and it sounds as if it is a proven game getter. With appropriate loading and proper cleaning, I don't think it will hurt it to shoot it.

Good luck with your quest!

Notchy Bob

 

[Barry Strickland]

The architecture is dead on for a very late period upper Illinois rifle of the late percussion period. Perhaps even Milwaukee area. This would be the same time period as the areas hotbed of scheutzen rifle matches. The "reversed" cap box is odd. The trigger guard is of a earlier time period when this style was used in that area on long rifles both full stocked and half stocked. The barrel being octogen/round is unusual but not out of the question.
This is the same time period when "sugarloaf" or elongated projectiles were being experimented with. The workmanship on the rifle appears to be very good not by some joe in his basement. I would not be surprised if the rifling was shallow and of a fast twist.
Like Notchy Bob said Curtis Johnson is the go to on this particular rifle.
I would enjoy seeing the other side of the rifle. Thanks for sharing your rifle with us.
Barry

 

[BMCS]

About 50-years ago I bought at auction a rifle that looks very much like yours. I didn't have much time to examine it but was pleased to see that the barrel was marked "H. Deringer Philad." When I had the opportunity to examine the rifle I was quite dismayed to find the lock plate had another maker's name on it and my initial conclusion was it was just an old gun that been patched up for auction. The saving grace was that the gun looked good so it became a wall hanger. Jump ahead a few moves and 45 or so years later and I started doing a few searches on Henry Deringer and the info started flowing. The Deringer family were well known gunmakers and made great firearms as well as trade, contract and military weapons. They also contracted with other makers for the manufacture of specific parts and one of those was the lock and hammer set-up. I had checked the name on the lock on my gun and, for the most part, couldn't read it but, when I had a subcontractor's name to look for, a name appeared, "J. Golcher." And, as I would find out, the Golchers supplied many of the locks used by the Deringers. So, now that you've read this far, my recommendation is to search "Deringer half stock indian trade contract rifle" and check some of the info that's provided. Also the lock on your gun Iooks like a Golcher lock wth another maker's name on it. I am new to this forum, not a collector (though items of interest are attracted to me) and certainly not an expert but I thought this info might be of help - good luck.

 

[BMCS]

Chukardogs, it is my opinion that our rifles share a reasonable resemblance. I've taken the liberty to attach a few pics for your perusal and for any other member that might want to throw in an educated opinion. And again, mine is stamped H. Deringer.

 

[kansas_volunteer]

The fish belly of the butt and curve into the wrist suggest late Ohio style. The buttplate is Ohio-ish as well. The Ohio style heavily influenced midwest makers in general. My guess would have been made somewhere between the Appalachians and the Mississippi and north of the Ohio River. Throw a dart at the map.