Need help with Indian Trade gun (20 gauge)

[wolkentanz]

Hello all,

some weeks ago I get my assembled Indian Trade gun (20 gauge 36" barrel) from North Star West. The lock and the ignition is very fast and reliable. It has the best ignition of all my flintlocks!

The problem I have is to find a good load for shooting at paper targets (50 yards).

I tried different ball size (0.600 and 0.610), different patch thickness (from 0.01 up to 0.025), different powders (Swiss No 2 and Wano PP), different loads (60 up to 80 grns) and I used over powder cards and cushion wads soaked with natural lube etc. I also tried loads with only patched ball without wads. Till now I did not find the load which the gun likes.

Has anybody a good load which worked accurate at 50 yards with a North Star West gun (with Swiss or Wano powder) without wipe between the shots ?

Please give me exact advice (ball diameter, powder, patch, lube, wads etc.)

What accuracy did you get with your North Star West smooth bore?

Best reagrds

 

[Trot]

I don't have a Northstar but do have a couple of other smoothbores. Each one is different as far as load that it likes. What kind of group are you getting? Remember 50 yards is pretty far for a smoothbore, I would start at 25 and work on a load and practice your hold before moving out to 50. Good luck!

 

[Swampman]

I used 60 grains of FFF GOEX and a patched .600 ball in 2 that I've owned. I don't use wads.

 

[KHickam]

Mine is not a NSW - but I went through this for a year with my new smoothbore.

I am told it takes some time for a gun to season or shoot in.

Anyway, I found that in mine - 80 gr FFFg, with a .15 pillow ticking patch, with a .600 RB that finally got to shooting very well.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Have you measured the bore of your gun? You are just guessing, and using a lot of powder and ball if you haven't measured the bore with a caliper. My 20 gauge fowler would not group at 25 yards before I measured the bore, and found out it was way overbored. I ordered some 19 gauge OP wads, and OS cards, and it began to group. I am still looking for the right Patch thickness/ball combination, but right now a very thick denim patch and the .600 ball loads well and seems to shoot a pretty good group for me. I want to get some .610 diameter balls, and use a .015 or .020" patch to see if this improves on accuracy. Do your work at 25 yards at first, and off a bench rest, to eliminate human errors.

Next, If you are not an experienced flintlock shooter, there is a learning curve that takes about a year to accomplish before you are consistent in how you load, hold, and follow through with your gun when shooting it. Without a rear sight, the position of the stock on your cheek is CRITICAL to good groups. That means you have to learn to mount the stock to your face the same way for every shot.

Learning follow through is probably the most difficult thing to do consistently, but when you get there, firing any other sighted rifle you have will make you look and feel like Daniel Boone! Without a rear sight, you also can have elevation difficulties, if you are not used to shooting a small front sight.

If you can tell us if your groups are stringing vertically, or horizontally, that would help us give you suggestions on where to concentrate your training. Are you reading your patches after each shot? That will tell you if your Patch/ball combination is right for the barrel.

Are you cleaning your barrel between shots, or trying to get as many shots out of the barrel before you clean? It makes a difference.

If you haven't acquired it, buy Dutch Schoultz's Black Powder rifle Accuracy System.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Dutch designed this system of reading patches to work up loads for rifles, but it works for shooting round ball out of smoothbore barrels, too. Its probably the best $15.00 US money you will spend.

Finally, you will probably never know just how much of an accuracy problem is YOU( your errors in sighting, holding, trigger squeeze, and follow through) and the gun and load unless you use a chronograph to take velocity readings from various load combinations.

You might consider taping a temporary rear sight to the gun to help you develop your loads, to help eliminate human error, also. My brother was working up loads for a new front sight on an old fixed sight gun, and he made a temporary, higher, rear sight out of wood, which he taped to his barrel to use with the new front sight to get on paper, and determine how high or low a replacement front sight would need to be. Working with another gun, I temporarly put a scope on the barrel to work up loads, so my errors would be easily seen. With the scope reducing sighting errors, and the chronograph telling me if how the load was doing, I found a good load for that barrel rather quickly, compared to past efforts with other guns, and was able then to remove the scope sight, and use the iron sight. The groups opened up, using the open sights, but I knew it was because of my eyesight, and human error, NOT the load. :hmm: :surrender: :thumbsup:

 

[Swampman]

You're on the right track with the thick patch. IMO the biggest mistake shooters make is using a ball that's way too big for the bore.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Curly's barrels were bored a little tight back in the old days. I'd give NSW a call and see what their bore size is and what ball/patch combo he recommends.

 

[mazo kid]

Mike is right about the early NW guns being bored tight...I can't use anything more than a .600 ball and a thin patch in my '82 vintage Curly left hand gun . When on a woodswalk, I sometimes "dry ball" without a patch after the bore fouls, then switch to #4 buck...works OK on close up targets. I don't know what the new barrels are bored to.

 

[matt denison]

Gentlemen, what Wolke failed to mention is that he is in Germany and Goex is not available. he is limited to Swiss, Wano or Schutzen powder. Perhaps some of you have experience with these powders and can help him. ? By the way, his gun is recent manufactured from my shop, the bore diameter is deadnuts .620". Thanks for any suggestions you have about the different powders and load combo's.

Matt Denison
NSW,Inc.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Matt: Thank you for giving us information that Wolke doesn't seem to understand. I am sure it may only be a language barrier. Swiss powders is hotter, and therefore prduces faster velocities than GOEX using the same powder charge by either weight or volume. Wano, Schuetzen are very similar to the burning rates of GOEX, from all the comparisons made, and written about. He can use GOEX powder recommendations for powder charges and substitute WANO. The only complaint I have ever heard about WANO is that it is dirtier. That is a problem that can be helped by screening the powder. I found that screen FFg Goex powder eliminated some clinkers( Oversized granules) and got rid of a lot of " fines" ( dust), and resulted in much cleaner burning of the remaining FFg powder in my barrel.

Wolke does not need to use both an OP wad( 1/8"( .125" thick)), and a cushion wad. If he is going to use a cushion wad, he needs to cut it in half or into 1/3s, to reduce the weight of the cushion wad when loaded with oil or grease.

I load my .20 gauge for RB shooting as follows:

75 grains of FFg Goex powder; one OP wad. Patched Round ball, using a .600 ball, and .024" patch( I have an oversized barrel) In his case, a .015 to .018" thick patching should work better. I lube the bore of the barrel in front of the PRB by running a greased cleaning patch down the barrel with my rod and jag after the PRB is seated, or as part of the seating operation. This protects the bore from rust during a hunt, gives extra lube to the patching so it maintains its coefficient of friction all the way up the bore, and softens the residue from the powder.

I think Wolke's problem has more to do with lack of familiarity with the gun, than with his loads. In fact, he may have changed too many things too quickly, from what he has written.

There is an article in the April Issue of Muzzle Blasts that indicates that NOT cleaning after each shot opens groups significantly in rifles. I would expect the very same thing is true with smoothbores.

I don't understand why someone buys a flintlock smoothbore, decides he is going to shoot a single projectile, and then wants to be in such a hurry that he doesn't clean the barrel after each shot. I have to wonder if the man is really mentally ready to accept the challenge of, and the limitations of the gun as a hunting weapon.

It still is not clear if the gun you made for him has a rear sight. If not, it becomes particularly necessary that he mount the gun consistently to his cheek so that his eye is at the same height, and the same windage for each shot he fires. Much shooting off-hand is usually done at 25 yards with a good load to learn this skill. It usually takes a couple of years to learn to do consistently enough that you begin to show good groups out at 50 yards.

I recommended that he consider putting even a temporary rear sight on his gun to develop a good load, by eliminating this human error. It also will help him learn to mount the gun to his face if he has this reference point closer to his eye. And, with any kind of rear sight, he will understand when he is canting his gun, or lifting his head, or failing to follow through by keeping his cheek on the stock in the same position through the shot.

Shooting small groups off a bench rest at 50 yards with a smoothbore and no rear sight calls for the best of loads, and a consistent loading and firing process. Shooting small groups with the same gun Off-hand at 50 yards calls for an expert, seasoned, shooter. You can get there, but it takes a lot of work. There are no short cuts, including cleaning only every 5 shots.

 

[wolkentanz]

Hello all,

thanks for your advice. Like you mentioned I will try to install a rear sight to eliminate human errors at first.

With the 60 or better to say 70 grs Swiss No 2 load I have found that the patches show dark streaks which tells me blow by of gases. I found this with and without cushion wads. So I think that Swiss No 2 (FFFg) is to fast and agressive. I will do a next test with only 50 grs Swiss FFFg and will check the patches again. If they even show those black streaks I will switch to Swiss No 3 (FFg) which is slower burning powder.

My theory about precision of smooth bore guns is that for good accuracy the ball should even stay over 1050 fps all the way to the target or being under 1050 fps. I think my medium loads of 60-70 grs will cause that the ball starts over 1050 fps and falls under this velocity during the travel to the target.

What do you think about this theory ?

 

[bingo1952]

You need to either be super-sonic all the way to the target or stay under the speed of sound. The transition from super-sonic to sub-sonic is the accuracy destroyer. The passing of the projectile back through its own shock-wave perturbs the flight path and makes accuracy hard to obtain. That being said the heavier a projectile is the less it is affected by the transition back to sub-sonic velocities.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The speed of sound varies with altitude, but is roughly 1135 fps.I use the lower figure of 1100 fps. just to be safe.

You need to stay below the 1100 fps. range with a round ball out of a smoothbore barrel to have any real accuracy at all. According to the Hodgdon Reloading manual, 2 1/2 drams,(69 grains) of FFg powder will create 1014 fps. with a 7/8 oz load of shot. The Round ball weights slightly less, or 3/4 oz. That would mean that the velocity you expect with that load should be a little faster. My experience indicates the PRB over 70 grains of FFg powder will give about 1050 fps, in a 20 gauge.

All patches will have black streaks along the sides. The folds of the patch are going to let some dirt get into the folds. Whether the gas blows by is not told by those streaks, but by holes in the patch, or tearing of the patch from the ring where the lead presses the patching to the bore, outward. The holes will appear at that junction, also, if you are using too thin a patch, or not the correct lube.

I recommend using a good cardboard OP wad- Circle Fly makes them, and they are sold by all distributors. I buy mine from Track of The Wolf-- under the PRB, regardless of the granule size powder you use. I also recommend using FFg powder, over FFFg powder in a flintlock of this caliber. Using the OP wad will help increase the pressure in the chamber, and burn the powder more efficiently, creating more gas, and more velocity. If you see any signs of gas blow by or cutting, use TWO OP wads behind the PRB. By all means, use a chronograph to clock the velocity you are getting with any RB in a smootbore gun. There are variations in lots of powder, and the differences in the diameter of your barrel, compared to my own, can mean a lot of difference.

The maximum efficient powder charge for your 36" barrel in 20 gauge will be 125 grains. this is probably more powder than your gun should be asked to handle on a regular basis. The recoil of such a powder charge will be substantial, and won't be kind to either the stock, or your shoulder. You will see loads of that size being discussed for use in strongly built barrels, that usually are full octagon and at least 1 1/8" across the flats, sometimes tapered to the muzzle, but I can not recommend using such loads in a barrel that is half octagon/half round, as mine is. My gunmaker left a lot more metal around the round portion of my barrel than I see in many other fowlers, but out to 75 yards, which is the longest shot I am likely to ever try on game with a PRB out of my fowler, that 70 grain powder charge will put a PRB right through the deer. Once you get 3/4 oz. of lead moving, its very hard to slow it down.

 

[wolkentanz]

Hello Paul,

thanks for your useful informations regarding the velocities.

I think with all the loads that I have tried I got velocities over 1100 fps.

The lowest load with the Wano PP was 70 grs. Wano increased the power of their P-series 2 years ago so that this load is should be equal to 75 grs of the Goex FFg.

The lowest Swiss FFFg load was 60 grs which should be equal to a little bit more 70 grs Goex FFg.

The next time I will give 50 grs Swiss FFFg a try. With this load I should be subsonic.