New cleaning mixture

[coloradoclyde]

There are some people who think that if they spend extra money for something, it must be better than the cheap stuff.



Distilled water, like H2O2 doesn't have any of the dissolved iron, lime and other things that common tap water has so I suppose it is less likely to leave these things behind. I guess that could make it worthwhile to some folks.

I can agree with all of that... :thumbsup:

If only more people knew what was in their tap water....

 

[Dewey]

From what I can find, Hydrogen Peroxide is about as acidic as "acid rain".

In other words, it's not acidic enough to make a difference when it comes to cleaning black powder fouling.

Anyone wanting to spend the extra money would be way ahead of the game by buying a gallon of distilled water.

The distilled water will cost less too.

A 10 % solution of pure hydrogen peroxide has a pH of about 5.3, whereas "acid rain" has a pH of less than 5.6 (normal rain is slightly acidic due to CO2 in the air).

However, some makers add acid to stabilize the peroxide (LeC principle). Some don't, and some use other stabilizing agents that are base. In other words, unless the maker tells you the pH (doubtful), there is no telling what you have unless you measure it !!!

Clyde, I tried to send you some pHydrion paper (I'm out of litmus) - I put it in this slot in my computer, but couldn't get it to "send". And now my floppy drive doesn't seem to work ....???!!! :shocked2:

Anyhoo, one reference I found gave a list of bp residues:

"The principal gases formed are carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and nitrogen. About one third of the gas created is nitrogen. The solid products are potassium carbonate, potassium sulfate, and potassium mono- and higher sulfides, and carbon. The white smoke and fouling of blackpowder comprise the solids that are produced upon combustion. In one test, 82 grains by weight left 42 grains of solid residue. The sulfides in the emissions create the nostril flaring rotten egg smell we all disdain."

As I said then, this list of solids should be mostly basic. No mention of sulfurous or sulfuric acid being formed, but hydrogen sulfide is formed during the reaction, which could react with oxygen to form SO2 and water to make acid. As I said then, I plan on testing the pH of my first wash (using distilled water) to find out for sure (haven't been back to the range since then).

If the residue is basic, you could use a weak acid (acetic, ie vinegar) to neutralize it, but you could also just use water to dissolve the potassium salts (all of which are very water soluble - even more so in warm water).

Just don't let it sit in the barrel, especially the first wash!

Remember that dilution of an acid or a base is a "neutralization" technique, too.

I may try to have the first wash analyzed for anions. Then we will know for sure what we have (and a better idea of how to deal with it).

On the other hand, if YOUR method is working for YOU, "... don't "fix" it" !!! :v

I will probably continue to use hot (tap) water with a cap of Murphy's regardless of what I find. Seems to work for MY conditions.

(Sorry for all the chemistry, folks.)

 

[necchi]

:applause: :bow:
Careful, reality doesn't work too well with a lot of folks when it comes to hoo-joo cleaning and lube recipes.

 

[Dewey]

PS

The most acidic rain (to date) in the USA had a pH of 4.3
Remember that every pH unit change is a TEN fold increase (or decrease) in acidity. It's a log scale.

Also:

Most folk use a peroxide solution that has been diluted by a third, so are using only a 1% concentration of peroxide.

 

[Okie Hog]

Black powder and the black powder substitutes contain potassium nitrate. The residue of blackpowder and the substitutes is mostly potassium carbonate, with a ph of about 11. The acetic acid in Windex with vinegar dissolves and neutralizes the potassium carbonate.

That neutralization should be important to folks who own own antique Colts and Winchesters. The iron or steel in those old barrels contains imperfections and inclusions; if you don't get all the dissolved residue out of the bore you may get rust.

Last week i fired a pristine original Winchester 1873 rifle for the first time in many years. The bore got swabbed with Windex with vinegar and oiled with Militec 1.

 

[Dewey]

Before another argument ensues...let me say that I don't think that what a person uses to clean with really matters all that much. If it is clean when you are done then it is clean, and when oiled will not present any problems. however if it is not clean when you are done and is not properly protected and stored, rust is I your future....

A clean gun is a clean gun...regardless of what path we take we all have the same end goal... :v

:thumbsup:

 

[coloradoclyde]

PS

The most acidic rain (to date) in the USA had a pH of 4.3
Remember that every pH unit change is a TEN fold increase (or decrease) in acidity. It's a log scale.

Also:

Most folk use a peroxide solution that has been diluted by a third, so are using only a 1% concentration of peroxide.

According to the MSDS sheet Windex mutisurface cleaner has a PH of 3.3....seems a bit harsh to me...
After all straight vinegar has a PH of about 2.4 and I have used it to etch or darken steel.

 

[Dewey]

Black powder and the black powder substitutes contain potassium nitrate. The residue of blackpowder and the substitutes is mostly potassium carbonate, with a ph of about 11. The acetic acid in Windex with vinegar dissolves and neutralizes the potassium carbonate.

That neutralization should be important to folks who own own antique Colts and Winchesters. The iron or steel in those old barrels contains imperfections and inclusions; if you don't get all the dissolved residue out of the bore you may get rust.

Last week i fired a pristine original Winchester 1873 rifle for the first time in many years. The bore got swabbed with Windex with vinegar and oiled with Militec 1.

Fair enough ... but remember that you have a lot more salts (sulfates, sulfides, etc.) to remove than just the carbonates. These salts can enhance the rust formation reactions. Some of them are are not basic and will not react with the acetic acid. Luckily, you are using a (mostly) water solution, so the water will dissolve them for you.

I do wonder if you need all those other chemicals in the Windex solution ... "Windex® Multi-Surface Cleaners contain detergents, solvents, fragrance, diluted vinegar, and alcohol. " Would using diluted vinegar and a bit of soap (and some IPA?) be better/cheaper ??? (Don't know, just musing)

BTW, if you have some surface rust, the vinegar should remove it for you.

Either way, you want to rinse well afterwards with water, dry completely and oil (or use your favorite rust preventative).

 

[Cruzatte]

I've been away for a while. Whatever happened to Stumpkiller's Moose Milk? Is that mixture out of fashion now?

No, no. It's fine. [Don't know that it was ever fashionable]. It is a solvent wipe and lube, but a bit of overkill for cleaning. It will dissolve fouling just fine; and is a bit less bulky than carrying two separate concoctions. All you need for cleaning is a little soap in water (cold, warm or hot) and then oil the bore.

I use a few drops of Murphys or Pine-Sol and warm water.

Here's the good 'ol Moose Juice and Moose Snot.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/203261/

I've been using Moose Juice for years to wipe down the bore between shots. Just a sprets on a patch is enough. Other than that, for real clean up after I get home from the range, yeah, water is just fine.

 

[Grumpa]

Dewey3, yours is as informative and interesting a post as I have seen in all the cleaning threads I have read on this Forum.

The chemical analysis is a much needed dose of reality, and I will await your further efforts as your time permits.

Armed with the facts, we can then all go back and tweak our various hocus-pocus, Big Ju-Ju, Magic Cleaning potions.

There is certainly room for "Magic" on the Dark Side, but my experience is that magic tends to work better if it has some basis in reality.

:hatsoff:

Richard/"Grumpa"

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

These discussions always give me a headache. All of the "new and better" concoctions contain exactly what I have used for years and years..... water. Water is what does the work, everything added to it is just window dressing.

 

[leslie]

A small amount of dish detergent does help because it makes the water "wetter".I agree the universal ingredient in all the magic elixirs is water.Why pay for something you don't need.

 

[catman]

I clean my guns what I drink, clean clear Ozark spring water and it works fine.

 

[azmntman]

Hmmm....rum and coke? I guess I'll give it a try but it seems like a waste :hmm: :slap: :shocked2:

 

[coloradoclyde]

I use the exact same mixture except I use water instead of h.peroxide (don't need an oxidizer) and leave out the olive oil. Oh, and I only use a capfull of Murphys per quart of water.

NEWS FLASH!!!
My preliminary results are in ....

For the last couple of weeks I have been using a (M.A.W)solution (murphy's, Alcohol, and water) instead of (M.A.P) (murphy's, alcohol, and peroxide)

My initial impression is; that M.A.W works good enough for it to be a direct replacement for a M.A.P solution....
I still think that M.A.P does a slightly better job, and I need to switch back to do a fair comparison.....
But the M.A.W. solution performed well enough for me to continue to use it.... :grin:

:hatsoff: To Stumpkiller....


Let the...." I told you so's " begin..... :haha: