New kit coming

I ordered a kit from Track of the Wolf today it's a full stock Hawkens with fancy maple stock, brass furniture and 1'' by 35'' long Goodoien match barrel in 50 caliber. I'm planning on building it as a convertible ( a percussion first) I've ordered both locks, since they had them both in stock, I thought I'd better.

I'm building it for a ( Cross-stick / Woods walked match rifle) it should end up 10 plus pounds.

When it gets here I'll have my camera ready for when I start building.

 

[cayugad]

That sure sounds like a nice rifle your planning to build. It will be interesting to see how it goes together and turns out....

 

[shmrck1]

roaddog
keep us posted on your project
snake-eyes

 

[54JNoll]

Sounds liek an interesting project. If I may make a suggestion though ... Since you have both locks on order I would recommend that you use the Flintlock to determine the location of the flash channel. Naturally you will need a removable touch hole liner or separate barrels. Mark the "ideal" location of the touch hole and drill for the drum and liner based on this. This way your flint conversion will be set for optimal touch hole placement with respect to the pan. Then install the drum and make adjustments to the fit with the lock as required to support the drum and then drill for the nipple.

 

I hate to start the day arguminitive but that lock advice goes against all of the recomendations of everyone and all of my own experiences.

You must install the percussion lock first and establish the relationship of the drum and nipple to the hammer. If you are using Siler locks the flint will drop into the mortise and the touch hole will line up close enough to the pan for reliable ignition. In spite of the theories, the hole don't have to be perfictly alligned. A hair off on the touch hole will still work.

If you install the flint action first you may never get the hammer lined up with the nipple properly on the percussion side. That will give you more problems than a slightly offset touch hole.

I'm just talking after my experiences with three or four conversion projects,usually not planned conversions. Going from percussion to flint has always worked out better for me than trying to convert an existing flint rifle to percussion. I always wind up at the forge, twisting and bending the percussion hammer, reforming the nose, shimming out the drum and nipple so the hammer comes down flat.

I have gotten to the point that I keep a blank drum on hand so I can set it up and drill it exactly where the nipple needs to be. That is in case I have massive bain fade and decide to convert something on the spur of the moment.

There are probably guys here that have converted more than I have.

 

Which location is best? According to Don Getz (Getz barrels) illustration No. 2 is best but I have seen several postings that recommend having the touch hole 1/32 to 1/16 above the horizontal line like illustration No. 1.

Here's a photograph of both locks to give everybody an idea what I'll have the work with.

 

[54JNoll]

No problem ... that's why we are all here right, to exchange ideas and onformation.

And you are right. If using a predrilled drum it would be easier the other way or the niplle may be too far off. I was talking about using a drum blank though I failed to make that clear. Also it was not specified as to the type lock being used.

Each method has pros and cons. It would also be possible to draw the possition of touch hole and drum location on the barrel and compare them and then make your decision on which way you wish to proceed.

I just prefer to modify the percussion to fit the flint. But then again I have not done as many conversions as you have.

 

[Zonie]

I'm glad you both agreed, or if not fully agreed, at least aggreed in part.
That's because you are both agreeing with me.

IMO the location of the Flintlocks flash hole isn't real critical (within 1/32 or so), but especially if your dealing with a lock with the pre-cut bolster like the lock in the photo, the location of the drum should be right on.
1/32 of an inch or so mis-location of the precussion locks drum is a real PITA to get the lock to support it properly. The drum really shouldn't just be hanging out in the air without support.

Yes, a person can work the lock bolster some to support the drum if the drum is too large or too low, but if it is too high the only answer is to go to a larger drum diameter.

With some locks, there is also a limit to how much you can enlarge the bolsters cut under the drum. That's because the end of some locks mainsprings stops right under this area.

As was mentioned, the hammer alignment with the nipple is another critical relationship that has to be maintained.
For both of these reasons, in a convertable rifle I much prefer to install the precussion lock first.

All in all, I think of the two ignition styles the Precussion is by far the hardest to install because of the reasons given above.

 

My kit arrived yesterday and I've been busy, busy, busy, there were several backorders and one messed up (wrong butt plate and toe plate) I just got off the phone with track (for the second time since yesterday), when I first called they said the breach plug and tang would'nt be in till September but today when I called in to change the backorder for the sideplate they told me it should be in the middle of this week.

I did get a good start on everything else (having sanded and polished the triggerguard, inlet the stock for the trigger, making the notch and polishing the rear sight). Now I'm Purdy much on hold waiting for the breach plug (don't want to do things in the wrong order).

 

[TwoShadows]

Touch holes...here's my attempt to help with the confusion. First, let me qualify by saying that C.R. and Don(Getz) are fine fellows and quite knowledgeable, I have an opinion that differs a bit. I don't suppose I have drilled over 25-30 in the last few years, so what do I know. Those boys do literally hundreds of them. Flint ignition works best when the fire from the flash jumps through the hole instead of having to burn it's way through...fact. If you are going to stand on the firing line and carefully handle your flinter...being careful to always make sure the flash hole remains clear, then by all means use the method pictured as #2. If you hunt or travel rough terrain and still want to have the best ignition when that target of opportunity pops up you might consider placing the hole higher as in #1. As long as the hole is covered by the top of the frizzen you will find that both work. I cant ask you to see if my method of having the touch hole high works well other than if Eats More Moose chimes in here....as he is the only one on the forum with a piece I vented. He is just now finding out on a Fusil De Fin I sent him recently. I figure that any manufacturer will opt for the classic position as in #2 for looks and uniformity. Nothing I can say will change that, and perhaps that is as it should be...for the masses. If you are going to err in placement...hopefully it will be on the high side...as few things are more aggravating than a slow fire when it really counts. People who are new to seeing a flint gun ignite are usually surprised when seeing how fast they can really be. Until a way can be found to measure the diference in ignition speed, I will just have to be content in knowing that a high touch hole seems as fast as persuction( spelling intentional!)on my rifles. One never REALLY knows how to look at/appraise a rifle until they have gone through the trials and tribulations of building one. Whether you do a perfect job or not, you will find yourself looking at what other builders did to accomplish their objectives.

 

[musketman]

This may seem odd (not really, coming from me) but do touch "holes" have to be round?

What if thay were like these?

I'm thinking #2 would work great, fast flash no matter what the level of the prime is...

Maybe I could cut a few vent liner's "holes" into different shapes and see what works best, I'm sure Maxiball will let me use his new flinter from Birddog6 to try this experiment...

 

Maxiball will let me use his new flinter! :what: :huh: ::
Nawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I don't think so! :no: :no:
Anyway, a round hole is really easy to make, that "half' hole would be a bear to make.

 

I admit that the best Flintlock (when it comes to ignition speed) is one built only for a Flint lock, because I'm building a convertible I'll be unable to use the whitelightin liner.

I decided to go with 3/8-24 drum and liner (this will give me a larger concave area inside of the liner to work with) hopefully with a little bit of tweaking I can achieve a little quicker ignition times.

 

[Darkhorse]

Well, I don't understand why anybody would want to build a convertible gun in the first place. Needing or wanting both a percussion and flintlock is a good excuse to build TWO rifles.
I'll have to agree with TwoShadows on the touchhole placement. I mark my hole dead center then drill a little above the mark.
Go out shooting one day and use a little too much prime in your pan a few shots. Now look real close at the barrel. It is easy to see from the residue where the fire is going, it is going UP and out.
That is a real good reason to have that hole above center.
Another good reason is if you accidently prime too much then the fire could still jump into the hole instead of burning to it like a fuse.

 

[eat moose meat]

Just got done test firing the fusil fin that two shadows sent me. He is right he did place the touchhole high. But let me tell you it was fast. I thought i was shooting a percussion. I was impressed I belive it is faster than the small siler I have on my custom J.P.Beck.

 

This may seem odd (not really, coming from me) but do touch "holes" have to be round?

What if thay were like these?

I'm thinking #2 would work great, fast flash no matter what the level of the prime is...

Maybe I could cut a few vent liner's "holes" into different shapes and see what works best, I'm sure Maxiball will let me use his new flinter from Birddog6 to try this

 

[Birddog6]

If you want to really test the function ot the hole in a vent liner, water is a easy way to do it.

Make a fitting with a baffle plate & connect a hose to it. Make one round & a slight beveled edge to it.
Make one with a slot.
Make one with a triangle.
Make one with a square.

Keep in mind thses holes regardless of disign must have the same total ID measurement.

The problem you find with the last 3 holes are turbulation & backsplash. If the flash or water is funneled into the hole you have less resisting pressure. All of the others hit against the flat edges & divert a slashback effect, such as sound does with stereo speakers clipping & thus why you are not supposed to have speakers facing each other. Part of the sound or water hits & splashes back & stops some of the sound or water from entering the hole. With the tapered funnel round hole you will get less backspash & altho some of it is diverted at angles, it will still have more volume going in the hole than the other 3. Kinda hard to explain but maybe I got the idea across.

Custom Muzzleloaders & Custom Skinning Knives

 

What would be the difference between raising the location of the flash hole by 1/32 or lowering the bottom of the pan by 1/32 :hmm:

 

[musketman]

What would be the difference between raising the location of the flash hole by 1/32 or lowering the bottom of the pan by 1/32 :hmm:

The lowering of the pan would be easy to do, just a few swipes of as file should do it...

Remember, it is easier to remove metal than it is to add metal, work slow...

If the flash hole is the liner type, then you could drill a few different holes on liner blanks and try them out one at a time...

 

With Siler locks I believe you are right, percussion first, then flint. With some locks you cannot do it that way--I know from experience. I built my first rifle with a Cochran lock, started with a percussion. Then I bought a Cochran flintlock and investigated a conversion. No Way! Old Willie never intended them to be interchangeable! Even though the plate is the same size/shape, the flint pan and drum openings do not line up! The only way to make a convertible with Cochran locks is the do the flint first, then the percussion--and you have to bend the percussion hammer to reach the nipple!!! Recently I converted a percussion to flint using a L&R Bailes locks and that worked OK except for depth of inletting to achieve a tight fit of the lock to the barrel side...it had to be adjusted. :m2c: