NEW (old) RIFLE - MAJOR PROBLEMS - NEED HELP & ADVICE!

[nit wit]

I guess I'd be upset also. An education is an expensive thing.
Nit Wit

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I absolutely agree just put on a new barrel they are not expensive and a super new rifle it would make that’s what I would do and have done do in the past. Unfortunately this seems to beyond mr silvers skills and finances

If mr Silver ,bless him, cannot even remove the barrel to proof test it we are all at a loss. Yes that’s the first job either way Barrels got to come off So if it’s off might just as well fill it with 120g black powder and ball and fire it at a safe distance Suggest then use a working load of 60g BP

However for me buy a new barrel. Which will need proofing anyway

It was once a nice rifle let’s see it shooting again. Thanks for your sensible comments

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

Ripped off...plain and simple

 

[Gordoncourtney]

Are you with Sussex MLs uk

 

[TNGhost]

Not sure what this even means, but if the seller is an honest man then he'll give you a full refund, hardship or not, unless you're donating. Not sure how you paid for it but paypal has processes to retrieve your funds but the window of time is limited to 45 days for you to file etc, and if you used a credit card through paypal then that is another option, but you can only do one, I'd go with pursuing with your credit card company, they are usually bulldogs with this sort of thing.

That's just a bad deal, sorry to see anybody get caught up like that.

Good Luck

This^

I am the seller... I came on here to look at what the community thinks and... wow... Now I feel like I need to defend my honor... The rifle has been in my family for over 55 years. Its not some cheap repo. I have shown it to many established ML people at the national shoots in Indiana a few years ago and everyone said it was a quality build and not a single person found a flaw with it.

John only found potential issues when he took things apart... I admittedly never took the rifle apart as I know absolutely nothing about muzzle loaders. I knew it worked because I have seen my dad do the "flash pan" if that's what its called. I also know my dad shot this rifle in competitions before I was born some 45 years ago. I have seen the pics and spoke to his friends and my mom who were there. This rifle was not some wall art that I am scamming to sell someone. I also had zero knowledge that there may be a crack in the barrel when I listed it.

I told John that I would not leave him hanging and I will for sure work with him to make this as much a win win as possible... I have major medical issues going on that has drained my finances and yes it was one of the factors in selling the rifle. I currently don't have the money to give him a refund. It went to bills the second the money came in...

Thank you to the guys who had knowledgeable posts.

Dan you need to man up and refund this man's money. You blatantly misrepresented what you sold to the tune of over two thousand dollars. The whole "health issues" thing not withstanding, if it is true and not just a continuation of a scam.

Refund in full and pay to have your rifle shipped back to you.

Should be a lesson to all of us when considering want ad purchases from newbie's to the forum.

 

[andy52]

That's a pretty large chunk of change to pay for a rifle with a bad flash hole and a crack in the barrel if it was represented as a rifle ready to use. It's one thing to know your buying a fixer upper with all the defects known by buyer and seller but this has a bad smell to it.
I my opinion the barrel could be made safe to shoot without a large outlay of funds.
It could be micro welded in the flash hole area to fix the crack and fill the flash hole, then drilled and threaded for a liner.
The cracks in the stock I couldn't comment on unless I saw them in person. The issue with oil buildup is a problem, it can be removed with acetone but that will effect the finish on the gun adversely.
I can say for sure that if I had paid that much for a rifle in that condition I'd be very unhappy to the point that if the seller didn't make it right the next conversation we had would be in front of a Judge.
Best of luck to you.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I am the seller... I came on here to look at what the community thinks and... wow... Now I feel like I need to defend my honor... The rifle has been in my family for over 55 years. Its not some cheap repo. I have shown it to many established ML people at the national shoots in Indiana a few years ago and everyone said it was a quality build and not a single person found a flaw with it.

John only found potential issues when he took things apart... I admittedly never took the rifle apart as I know absolutely nothing about muzzle loaders. I knew it worked because I have seen my dad do the "flash pan" if that's what its called. I also know my dad shot this rifle in competitions before I was born some 45 years ago. I have seen the pics and spoke to his friends and my mom who were there. This rifle was not some wall art that I am scamming to sell someone. I also had zero knowledge that there may be a crack in the barrel when I listed it.

I told John that I would not leave him hanging and I will for sure work with him to make this as much a win win as possible... I have major medical issues going on that has drained my finances and yes it was one of the factors in selling the rifle. I currently don't have the money to give him a refund. It went to bills the second the money came in...

Thank you to the guys who had knowledgeable posts.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

This^



Dan you need to man up and refund this man's money. You blatantly misrepresented what you sold to the tune of over two thousand dollars. The whole "health issues" thing not withstanding, if it is true and not just a continuation of a scam.

Refund in full and pay to have your rifle shipped back to you.

Should be a lesson to all of us when considering want ad purchases from newbie's to the forum.

 

[danimal107]

The seller here again... Just to give both sides of the story, I told John I would not leave him hanging... But I do not have the money to give him a full refund at this time. I won't give my life story as to why but this is where I am. I can't make $2,700 appear out of thin air and this was the last valuable (so I thought) thing I could sell to raise money.

I truly had no idea there were any issues with it. I inspected the stock and it looked beautiful... There is a small crack that was fixed that I missed. It blends in with the tiger wood pattern. That is 100% my mistake. As far the the barrel being cracked John says it is. Majority of the people posting looked at the pics and say they don't think it looks like it is. Not saying who is wrong or wrong. But I know for a fact my dad shot this rifle and it worked fine when it was put away...

I suggested to John in our last conversation a few days ago that we have a professional look at it and see what the exact condition is and what it will cost to make it right if needed. I even said I would pay for the cost to make it right. If it's considerably less to fix and make a nice shooter that option would be easier for me to make happen than a full refund at this time. Thats where we left things. Then he posted more info on this forum for opinions and just about everyone says it can easily be fixed. I'm simply asking for the ability to see what it would cost to make this right. But he wants a full refund again and doesn't want to work with me on making the rifle right so we can have some sort of win win out of this. I understand he is upset but I am trying to work with him and come to some sort of agreement that is good (as it can be) for everyone. If I don't have the money and he only wants a full refund that gets us nowhere fast...

I also told him if the rifle was looked at by a professional and deemed a wall hanger and not fixable or cost way more to fix than the rifle is worth we can talk about a plan for me to give him a full refund. And I am more than willing to do that...

So am I being unfair here wanting to explore the option to fix this rifle so its shootable (if needed) on my dime and create something positive out of what is a crappy situation all around...???

 

[dave_person]

Hi Long John Silver,
First, the maker of the rifle was clearly an amateur based on the poor lock inletting, vent hole drilling, and other details of the rifle. I don' t care what others who looked at it over the years said about it. The photo below shows what good lock mortice inletting looks like. It also looks like it was not cleaned after the last time it was shot. In my opinion, there is nothing special about the gun worth salvaging at your expense. It is not a great gun I would return it and get a refund. Perhaps you can work something out with the seller to pay you back over time but the onus is on him to do the right thing.
dave

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

This^



Dan you need to man up and refund this man's money. You blatantly misrepresented what you sold to the tune of over two thousand dollars. The whole "health issues" thing not withstanding, if it is true and not just a continuation of a scam.

Refund in full and pay to have your rifle shipped back to you.

Should be a lesson to all of us when considering want ad purchases from newbie's to the forum.

Defend your honor by being honorable....

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Hi Long John Silver,
First, the maker of the rifle was clearly an amateur based on the poor lock inletting, vent hole drilling, and other details of the rifle. I don' t care what others who looked at it over the years said about it. The photo below shows what good lock mortice inletting looks like. It also looks like it was not cleaned after the last time it was shot. In my opinion, there is nothing special about the gun worth salvaging at your expense. It is not a great gun I would return it and get a refund. Perhaps you can work something out with the seller to pay you back over time but the onus is on him to do the right thing.
dave

Dave Person is a most qualified person to evaluate this as requested by the seller. His judgment can be trusted on this. If he could not make these statements just from looking at the pictures he most certainly would not do so.

 

[Zonie]

We don't know what the rifle looks like, what the bore size is or if that is really a crack. You bought the gun from a good faith seller and I would say it's yours. Look on line for a magnaflux kit (most of them are two part aresol type things) or take the barrel to a gunsmith. If it is indeed cracked, take it to a blacksmith and have some tomahawks made out of it. If you are looking for a shooter, BUY a new barrel , since it was made 40+ years ago it is probably a straight barrel and you can replace it with a green mountain barrel pretty easily. If you have never put lugs under a barrel now is a good time to learn. Work carefully and reinstall the barrel. You CAN do it. BTW what is the maker's name on the bottom of the barrel? Good luck and let us know how you make out

The two part inspection process you described is a dye penetrant test. It is not a Magnaflux test.
Magnaflux testing involves applying a fluid that contains fine metal particles or a dry powder that glows when they are subjected to florescent light . Subjecting the part to an intense magnetic field will cause the metal in the dye or powder to line up with any cracks that are on, or that are under the surface.
Because the magnatism is effected by any discontinuity in the metal, this test will show cracks that are under the surface and don't break thru.
Most really good automobile engine rebuilding shops have a Magnaflux machine and often they will preform the type of testing that this barrel needs for a very reasonable amount of money.

Dye Penetrant testing is the two part test I think you were thinking of. A penetrating fluid is sprayed onto the area followed by spraying the surface with another fluid that causes the first fluid to change color. If there is a crack on the surface, the accumulated fluid in the crack will make this color change much more than the areas that are distant from the crack so the crack becomes easily seen.
This is a relatively cheap test and most good gunsmith shops and auto repair shops have it and can do it for a low price.
Dye Penetrant's chief weakness is that it only checks for external cracks which break thru the surface of the material.

Either of these tests will show the crack in this barrel if it is there.

 

[TNGhost]

The seller here again... Just to give both sides of the story, I told John I would not leave him hanging... But I do not have the money to give him a full refund at this time. I won't give my life story as to why but this is where I am. I can't make $2,700 appear out of thin air and this was the last valuable (so I thought) thing I could sell to raise money.

I truly had no idea there were any issues with it. I inspected the stock and it looked beautiful... There is a small crack that was fixed that I missed. It blends in with the tiger wood pattern. That is 100% my mistake. As far the the barrel being cracked John says it is. Majority of the people posting looked at the pics and say they don't think it looks like it is. Not saying who is wrong or wrong. But I know for a fact my dad shot this rifle and it worked fine when it was put away...

I suggested to John in our last conversation a few days ago that we have a professional look at it and see what the exact condition is and what it will cost to make it right if needed. I even said I would pay for the cost to make it right. If it's considerably less to fix and make a nice shooter that option would be easier for me to make happen than a full refund at this time. Thats where we left things. Then he posted more info on this forum for opinions and just about everyone says it can easily be fixed. I'm simply asking for the ability to see what it would cost to make this right. But he wants a full refund again and doesn't want to work with me on making the rifle right so we can have some sort of win win out of this. I understand he is upset but I am trying to work with him and come to some sort of agreement that is good (as it can be) for everyone. If I don't have the money and he only wants a full refund that gets us nowhere fast...

I also told him if the rifle was looked at by a professional and deemed a wall hanger and not fixable or cost way more to fix than the rifle is worth we can talk about a plan for me to give him a full refund. And I am more than willing to do that...

So am I being unfair here wanting to explore the option to fix this rifle so its shootable (if needed) on my dime and create something positive out of what is a crappy situation all around...???

First off, you are the one that misrepresented the condition of what you were selling. You advertised it as ready to shoot in good condition. It obviously was not and the half **** not working to me indicates you should have known that. There were it seems a number of issues with the rifle beyond the barrel crack and the stock crack as indicated by the OPs posts below.

The man was looking for a rifle he could shoot now, not one that needed to be repaired for perhaps hundreds of dollars and weeks of work, and now it seems you are playing a delaying game for not wanting to refund his money. So you lied, and need to give him his money back, now.

After reading the below how can you insist that you "knew nothing" of the rifle's problems?

Greetings, Gents.
Thanks very much for your input. Please excuse the lengthy post, BUT, still need help here.
I think we may have strayed a bit (pics of other rifles) from the fact that this rifle was presented here as a fine specimen, ready to shoot, rust free, kept in climate controlled storage for decades. The external cracks in the stock - were not shown in the photos or reported on the forum. (The internal cracks behind the end of the barrel could not have been seen by Dan, the seller, unless he had removed the lock.)
View attachment 66178
Dan's very understandable desire for this gun was as he posted here, shortly after joining the Forum in September 2020 (He was taking some complements and flack about the rifle):

danimal107
32 Cal · 43
Joined Sep 30, 2020
Last seen Wednesday at 11:40 PM

Oct 1, 2020
Appreciate everyones response to keep it because it was my dads... This was my original plan. But unfortunately I can never shoot guns again due to some major nerve damage in my ears that is getting progressively worse. If I continue to shoot guns I will soon be completely deaf. So I am selling my collection and taking the money from my fathers pieces to buy a watch I can wear and remember him that way. I don't have kids or siblings that would possibly have kids, and I will never have kids. I thought about keeping it to display somewhere in the house but thats not my style so the rifle is getting sold...

Last edited: Oct 1, 2020

That post got some great responses - some memorable to me about guns and inheritance. I'm thankful to have kids and Grandkids - and a former Marine son-in-law (already gave him my AR) I shoot with and can leave my guns to! Gave my Grands (his 3 kids, 6, 8 and 10) a Henry .22 for Christmas. They're already shooting it! : )

SINCE RECEIVING THE RIFLE:
I have replaced the broken brass ramrod tip (fell out of the wrapping when I unpacked it) with a new one, and antiqued it (having bored and tapped the end of the ramrod - which oddly had protruded 3/4" or so from the end of the barrel - surely not original - and "just asking for it!" - especially with a 6 x 32 screw.)
View attachment 66172

Good argument for a full-size drill press vs. the shorty I almost bought!

View attachment 66174
Original (right - which I bored to 10 x 32) but decided to use a tip I had on hand (left) - a 10 x 32 - was shiny brass - but I "antiqued it" with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar solution - 50/50. Have a 10 x 32 screw in the old one - ready for installation if desired. (NOT a good idea.)
View attachment 66175

I'm HOPING that all the hours of work I've put into this rifle encourages Dad to refund me - since it will certainly help him reselling it! Oh... swabbed the barrel too. It was fouled black, but not too bad. Finished
with a cotton swab soaked in Ballistol. Wife complained it stunk up the Great Room. Yep. : )

View attachment 66173
...Degreased (solidified grease) and descaled the rust from the lock so that it now has a strong action and will even spark with the flint not quite properly napped. Video of the lock sparking (Nope, that ain't gonna start no house fires but the flint could remove a fingertip! : )
BEFORE: View attachment 66163\
Is it any wonder that it would not hold on half-**** much less full?
View attachment 66164
AFTER: And, note the "CS" on the lock plate. Someone suggested this was a Siler. Comment?
View attachment 66165

I'm a fanatical, unrepentant "fixer-upper" as many of you probably are. I LOVE taking something from not working to working! (My expertise: antique smoking pipes (See some of my pre-Barlings on Pipedia) and reel-to-reel tape recorders like this '73 TEAC - NOT muzzle loaders!)
NOW....
Some of y'all have suggested that I:
1. buy and install a new barrel. This is waaay above my pay grade, and, after paying $2,700 for a rifle that was supposed to be in perfect firing condition, even with a re-barreling, I would be left with a stock that had external cracks that cannot be perfectly repaired. Besides, that was already attempted by someone and it looks awful - has partially re-opened on the top.
AND, what does a new barrel cost? $400-500? And the labor to install/re-bed it, bore the flash-hole to fit the flash pan, inlet the tang properly - and all that by a competent gunsmith? And who would that be? Where is he? Jim Chambers lives in Candler about 45 min. from us. Is he still "alive and kicking?" And, how would the rifle get there and back? Me? And if Jim is not available, who would pack it and pay the shipping - where and to whom?

2. Cutting off the barrel - but being a full-stock rifle, then what? Short barrel, full stock. How is this helpful? And, who would do this, where are they, how would the rifle get there and back, and at what cost?

3. Drilling and installing a touch-hole liner. Again, this is waaay above my pay grade, so would have to be done by a competent gunsmith. AND, note that the crack in the barrel at the flash hole extends all the way inside and quite a distance below the flash hole - a bit longer than the diameter of a touch-hole liner.
View attachment 66167
And, why the crack in the first place? It goes all the way into the bore, and, one would assume was caused by INTERNAL pressure - from either 1. a weak barrel from the get-go, 2. over- or double- charging, or 2. someone accidentally using smokeless powder (This is a very interesting old video in that regard: )

Spending many, MANY 100s of dollars to repair what was sold as a ready-to-fire rifle in perfect condition is not an option for me. NOT my responsibility. Now if Dan wishes to do all that and resell it, that's an option. But MY WISH is that he accept my return and do as he wished - have it repaired at his own expense, or resell it as a beautiful wall-hanger. \
BUT, to risk firing it as is an exploding breech in the face is hardly an option. I WONDER if any of you gents would load and fire it as-is? LOL! Line up and the rest of us will watch... at a distance! At ease Lads! I JEST!

This is a LOT of expense TO BE UNDERTAKEN BY ME for a rifle that was presented as ready to shoot.
Okay... THANKS for all your input - some of which Dan has taken issue with.
But, if you'll forgive this old preacher/missionary, I remember as a kid, our family was driving from home in Jackson MS to the Gulf Coast for vacation. At a truck stop on old Hwy 80, us 3 boys all had to have a potty break. There on the stall beside me - a lad of 10ish years old - was a poem - scratched into the gray paint - one of those dittys that, having seen, you just can't un-see, even though I'm a ripe old 78:
"HERE I SIT, BROKEN HEARTED, PAID A NICKEL TO S**T, BUT I ONLY FARTED."
That's me... and this rifle.
But, as Tiny Tim Cratchit said, "God bless us, everyone!"
CLUELESS IN CAROLINA, hoping I've not spoken out-of-turn.
LongJnSilver - Johnny - [email protected] / www.grace4life.com

Dear Gordon Of Many Smiles, and Lads who've shown an interest. SORRY if I appear to "beating a dead horse," but she ain't dead to me given the massive dent in my pocketbook, so please bear with me once more. Thanks! (BTW, Gordon, my wife and I lived in Eastcote - out the Met past Rayners Lane - for 6 years. LOVED riding my Harley in the English countryside - dodging spooked pheasants!) I reckon it's easy to smile when the rifle for which you paid handsomely isn't yours - a firearm that was promised to be in perfect condition, rust free, stored for decades in a climate controlled safe.
And as to rifle building, sadly "I ain't you" - have NO expertise with muzzleloaders, and my "perfect rifle" is much less than perfect - faults galore - ("This is an ex-parrot?"), and being no gunsmith, I should return the rifle - not spend many $100s MORE dollars trying to fix it.
FYI, the photos of the crack can't reproduce what the naked eye can see clearly, not a scratch, but a separation of metal - a tiny jagged crack that follows in and through into the interior of the bore. Here is another view - from the back - showing loss of metal.
View attachment 66246

And, someone mentioned the odd angle of the flash hole. A pic:
View attachment 66247
Not being a gunsmith, have never removed a multi-pinned barrel from a muzzleloader, much less "proofed one" to see if it'll explode. IF I attempted such disassembly and testing, the rifle would then be un-returnable as the seller could claim that the damage was my doing.
THE POINT NOT TO BE LOST IS THIS: I was sold a SHIP-SHAPE SHOOTER , not a PROJECT GUN, and I've already done far more than should have been required in cleaning the non-working lock so it works. The seller wrote that he had "done the flash in the pan" thing, but wanted a video of me shooting his Dad's rifle, and that I should "shoot often and in good health." SO... why would a buyer of a rifle sold as being in perfect condition have to spend MANY $100s of dollars - up to what $700, $800? - to have a gunsmith re-barrel it? install a flash-hole insert? to make it safe and shootable. I have offered to pay the approx. $130 shipping to return the rifle.
I'm done with buying used black powder firearms. Had a previous bad experience with a Hawken in mid-Jan. on Gunbroker.com, damage to the stock not shown in the fuzzy ad photos. Thompson Center Hawken 54 Caliber Very Good Condition - Black Powder Rifles & Muzzleloader Rifles at GunBroker.com : 889896521 The seller graciously accepted my return and refunded my money - including returned postage. He re-listed the rifle detailing the defect and reduced the price accordingly. Good man!
I've ordered a Frontier Deluxe Maple Pedersoli from Cherry's Fine Guns in Greensboro, NC - but it'll be months coming. I wanted this rifle to be able to shoot now - with my Grandkids as the weather warms.. have them shoot a percussion pistol (my 1851 Colt Navy), a flintlock pistol (my Harpers Ferry Pedersoli) and a percussion rifle (* sigh *) and a flintlock rifle (* sigh *).
- Johnny - LongJnSilver -

Do the honorable thing and refund this man's money.

 

[danimal107]

I can honestly say with a lie detector hooked up to me I knew absolutely nothing about any issues. I didn't try to play with the half **** and fire it or anything. It worked when it was stored last and I assumed it works fine now.

You can believe me or not... Don't know what else to tell you people.

 

[solitare1340]

I hope you take whatever measures necessary to get your money back. Seems like a easy win in court.
I’m new to this forum and see a lot of beautiful rifles for sale on here, but now would be very hesitant to buy one. Probably not possible but a seller rating would be great. Does anyone know if this forum will allow danimal 107 to sell anything else on here?
Best of luck to you

 

[Mulebrain]

At the price paid for this rifle, and the description. The seller should reimburse you for the cost to fix or replace the barrel.
I don't consider the wood issues much of a problem. I cant stand getting a gun in and it's dirty. This one was shot, and then
just put away, who knows how long ago. Get a price from Bobby Hoyt, to fix the problem. If the seller doesn't agree to the
repair or replacement, then demand a full refund.

 

[Eric Bye]

Bud Siler stamped his locks CS (for Charles Siler) when he owned and operated his company (from the early 60s to about 1993, I believe, when. Jim Chambers bought the lock business). Siler locks are among the best, and many people are pleased to have an older lock with the CS mark. I have one that has been in use since 1974, and it has always been a superb performer. I think the surface rust (patina!) on the inside of your lock will clean up fine and the lock will continue to function as it's supposed to.
On another topic, the flash hole on the rifle angles forward for a reason: to clear the front of the breech plug. This is not a perfect situation - the lock should have been placed a fraction of an inch farther forward when the rifle was built. However, this configuration exists on many original guns, which evidently served their owners satisfactorily for a long time. The rifle probably will work fine even if the flash hole path is slightly longer than a hole drilled at 90 degrees. This might entail an infinitesimal ignition delay, but I doubt it will even be perceptible in firing.

 

[ScottE]

Come on mr silver let's have a smile on your face with a proof test .......I don't wish to bring rude words into this forum but you mention "farted " bit rude but never mind...it made me smile.

Try and smile as I spent 3 years in Lagos Nigeria, bad place, lovely people, at the hunters club to me a new member

"What is bliss on the west coast of Africa" "A dry f...t" I conclude to any offence this might cause , but it is a gunny club thing.and seriously a very funny joke, and very very true

Smile please we will get you through this even if I am 6,000 miles away.SMILE MR SILVER

Regards Gordon London

Greetings. I spent 5 years between PH and Lagos myself. Enjoyed myself very much.

 

[Gordoncourtney]

I

I Gordon Courtney 77 am an expert buying repairing guns since 1963 I particularly buy from Holts and Bonhams. I Also examine and report on guns value and condition. I actually bid on behalf of a USA buyer

I am happy to act as an expert for this so called gun from the photographs is a dangerous firearm and should only be used as a wall hanger the fire hole should be welded up for future safety I would value it at $150 to $300
I am at your service.



[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Gordoncour
[QUOTE="Gordoncourtney, post: