New to me Colt Baby Dragoon Gen 2

[45D]

What would you like to see? Exactly..I know it may be hard to believe..lol..but it is what it is.As i have looked around on this topic, there have apparently been other examples that had a longer than needed Arbor…or an example that is done exact.

To be honest, it’s really not that serious..you seem to be , in complete disbelief,

I just don’t know , in this case what i could show? And how I could show it

I mean for god sakes…if i really wanted to lie about it…anyway…To brag,to the internet about this special “Unicorn” that i ,.Gino Delucia ,.were special enough to get, and the internet demanded pictures to prove that Unicorn exists in neverland.

Do you know how easy, I could in fact show you ,using my sophisticated measuring tools, how the barrel bore for instance, is exactly…not just close..EXACTLY..Dead set 0.001 to 0.001 as to where the Arbor stops it’s insertion?

You would then say…Damn..you lucked out Gino..ok end of conversation

And that would be a lot of work, for???

With that said, i just don’t know how I could show you proof, while someone holds the Camera? Who is not here…and ?? I show what? Lol

Well, I typically back up my claims with pics. Not necessarily "disbelief" but I haven't seen a 2nd Gen with correct length arbor in over 10 yrs . . . and I've probably seen more than you. Heaven forbid anyone learn anything from your posts . . . it would be, as you suggest, too much work . . . so no need for any more conversation.

Mike

 

[Gino753]

Well, I typically back up my claims with pics. Not necessarily "disbelief" but I haven't seen a 2nd Gen with correct length arbor in over 10 yrs . . . and I've probably seen more than you. Heaven forbid anyone learn anything from your posts . . . it would be, as you suggest, too much work . . . so no need for any more conversation.

Mike

Mike,

Im not submitting my claims , to inform people that these pieces don’t suffer from this problem, regarding a Short Arbor..lol..

I clearly explained, this as well if you read my reply.In that while this issue is largely talked about in this community , what is also talked about is the Fact that some of these Revolvers, happend to come with Arbors that were a bit on the long side.

Some of them came, done correctly …Then it appears that more of them came with Arbors that are too short.

Again though, it is mentioned and I did not have to dig hard at all to find.That it appeared to be a Fit To Fit basis kjnd of thing.

With that, I was simply sharing the news here, without even making a new post, to inform everyone, that My particular example seems to be ok.Therefore anyone who learns an incorrect lesson from what I shared, would need to Stop…and read this page again, but with that said

I was reading an article this morning , about this whole second Generation thing starting in the mid 1950’s and when it came to light

And when Iver Johnson , took over

It was mentioned that, under his company these Revolvers had there parts “Hand Fitted” So maby that helped.

What I experienced however…is that I had 2 of these revolvers to choose from.Both being Second Generation Colt 3rd Model Dragoons, accept one was from the “C” Series, and one was from the “F” series

The “F” series in this case, was made far superior to the “C” Series example.Two other people as well ,felt the same way

Soo, as to not confuse anyone I will say my tests, are inconclusive, and I don’t wish to use this piece as a test example, and won’t be taking it apart and sticking my depth guage down its neck,more than I have already have done, as it is because it is too nice, and I am squeamish regarding that type of thing.

So to anyone reading this..these pieces are knows to have short arbors, and it is advised to have someone that is knowledgeable, to go over the revolver..

A big test, that i seem to see people do with these, is that they will pull the barrel off, and the cylinder , and then reinstall the barrel with the bottom of the bottom block of the revolver, facing them Bottom serial number facing them,and try and install the barrel back on the revolver and rotate the block down, to see if the barrel goes in further towards the frame.I have to say that this is not a good way to go about it, because a hole is never 100% round 180 degrees around ,and or the Arbor ..or a shaft, especially a taper shaft.

I tried this on a couple different Uberti’s , im that one barrel went on and down past the frame (Short Arbor?) hole too deep in barrel?

And another one, did not go down all the way, making it look like the arbor was too long…or maby the hole was too short?? I did not measure but..

Im not good at typing , and or proper grammer , clearly soo… I will end this conversation as inconclusive.Im going to say that I feel safe operating her and I am very happy with my purchase

 

[Gino753]

I would like to add, in regards to making your own percussion Caps, using the Die that .22 reloader sells.Just to share a personal finding.

I read a post, were a person talked about using Sheets of Brass ,instead of sheets of processed Soda Cans, to use as material for making the caps, and with that said.

the thickness of brass sheets recommended , were 0.005 more than likely because the thickness of some soda cans that I measured happend to be 0.004-0.005

However, given the nature of Brass, being a bit harder than Aluminum with Brass having a MOHS scale rating of around 3 where aluminum has a MOHS scale rating of 2.5

I found that, using sheets of Brass with a thickness of 0.004 turned out to be ideal, and much easier on my tool.A sheet of 0.004 Brass felt roughly the same weight and pliability as a similar size sheet of aluminum can, measuring 0.005 for the most part,and this Cap tool Die , punches through the same way, as the can material while still resulting in an nicer, and still stronger form, compared to the Aluminum

I then , followed the formula of Duco Cement of 1 part to 4 parts Acetone as mentioned, and this formula is great.It completely penetrates the substance used for the caps, then hardens it.The caps remain filled while shaking around in a plastic bottle

 

[Smokerr]

Thanks to Mike I when I got my 47 Walker I was on the lookout for the short arbor.

Now I am a measure it type of guy, but the barrel assembly does not swing sideways on mine, locks up (no idea why, don't particularly care).

So I did what Mike recommended and add a shim and start checking the fit. I would up with a shim and the soda can shim and it was close, one more shim and too much (gap between the cylinder and the cone at around .008).

My only problem is that trying to make mental pictures of this stuff does not come easy. I am kind of a two dimensional guy to start with.

I have gone off track a few time but Mike is consistent and persistent and eventually I sorted it out and he was right. No question I defer to Mike because he is right.

Equally he was spot on on how to tune the bolt timing on a ROA for half cock (we had a great discussion about it). I was also not getting his point on the drag line on cylinder, finally did. Simple if stupid on my part not seeing what he was saying.

Now I don't know nuttin about anything other Colts type than my 47 Walker and what Mike said, it would have a short arbor and he was spot on. Flip is if Mike reports a short arbor on the Mastodon from 25,000 years ago, I am going with Mike on it!

 

[RMFnLA]

I now have three 2nd Gen Colts; an 1862 Pocket Police, an 1862 Pocket Navy, and an 1851 non-Navy (Colt made 300 with a blank cylinder).

I think they are terrific.

Beside the gorgeous fit and finish I love the authentic Colt lettering, no Black Powder Warning, and NO ITALIAN PROOF MARKS!

 

[45D]

Thanks to Mike I when I got my 47 Walker I was on the lookout for the short arbor.

Now I am a measure it type of guy, but the barrel assembly does not swing sideways on mine, locks up (no idea why, don't particularly care).

So I did what Mike recommended and add a shim and start checking the fit. I would up with a shim and the soda can shim and it was close, one more shim and too much (gap between the cylinder and the cone at around .008).

My only problem is that trying to make mental pictures of this stuff does not come easy. I am kind of a two dimensional guy to start with.

I have gone off track a few time but Mike is consistent and persistent and eventually I sorted it out and he was right. No question I defer to Mike because he is right.

Equally he was spot on on how to tune the bolt timing on a ROA for half cock (we had a great discussion about it). I was also not getting his point on the drag line on cylinder, finally did. Simple if stupid on my part not seeing what he was saying.

Now I don't know nuttin about anything other Colts type than my 47 Walker and what Mike said, it would have a short arbor and he was spot on. Flip is if Mike reports a short arbor on the Mastodon from 25,000 years ago, I am going with Mike on it!

Smokerr . . . you are crackin me up!!!
(but I do appreciate it!!)

Mike

 

[Smokerr]

Good, some humor is not a bad thing at all.

I may not be putting this correctly but I think the general idea is right and hat is off to someone that has gone that distance with all these BP variations.

As I tell my dentist when he asks me what I want to do, hey, I got one set of teeth, you have seen tens of thousands . You tell me what I should think!

 

[Gunfather]

Hey Dicky!! I'll be doing a pictorial with yours this week. I'll post um here.

Mike

Hey Mike I have a couple guns I'd love to have you work on them for me I have an 1860 colt pietta and 1858 Remington that need cap rakes and shields and the works. What's the best way to reach you?

 

[45D]

Hey Mike I have a couple guns I'd love to have you work on them for me I have an 1860 colt pietta and 1858 Remington that need cap rakes and shields and the works. What's the best way to reach you?

PM sent.

 

[Gino753]

Ok, so i finally took apart my 1973 Colt “C” Series 1851 Navy, and this gun does in fact have a short Arbor, or hole drilled too deep.Just as well, the drill broke through, into the ramrod channel, like a pic you showed me Mike.

The wedge was also, a little tough to get out, and when i finally pushed it out, I found that the left side, edge of the wedge, got scraped against the inside Arbor wedge slot, or the wedge slot on the barrel, however it scraped off the blueing, and or a skim coat of metal.

May I have your advice as to , fixing a Second Gen Colt? I understand making a plug for the inside of the barrel, to fix Arbor fitment, but would it be Blasfamous , to mod this piece?

Also, in my case, the Second Gen “C” Series being superior , to the “F” does not seem to be the case.My “F” series Dragoon, appears to be built a bit better, although the cylinder does not spin,like a Hockey puck gliding in ice, like the 1851 Navy does

 

[Smokerr]

Mike had to educate me that spinning cylinders is considered bad, he certainly convinced me though on your own gun?

Sometimes I have to squint before I get what he is saying. I can see the edicate aspect to spin someone else's cylinder.

Also had to give it some thought as he is right (pretty sure always) that the bolt recesses as soon as you move the hammer, it only goes back up after you drop back to the first hammer notch (if its not timed right).

It may be its so messed up the bolt does not drop into the frame before it rotates but what I have seen that is not true. Certainly I could be wrong.

As for doing work on your gun, I don't know the value is there that should stop you. If you want to shoot it you need to fix it, sounds like the wedge setup is pretty awful. Even my 47 Walker (23) was decent wedge ops before I shimmed the arbor.

Its one solution to drop in a shim with glue of some kind to get the right arbor length.

What I don't know is how much that affects the wedge action of if that is a separate issue. Mine was fine so I have not delved into that aspect. I dropped a shim in, then added another aluminum can shim, got ok then added one more and got more cylinder gap then I should.

So I pulled out the one aluminum can shim and its good for now. With the glue both stay in the arbor hole nicely.

I doubt I will do any drilling. If I decide to go that route I would contact Mike and have him do the work.

 

[45D]

Ok, so i finally took apart my 1973 Colt “C” Series 1851 Navy, and this gun does in fact have a short Arbor, or hole drilled too deep.Just as well, the drill broke through, into the ramrod channel, like a pic you showed me Mike.

The wedge was also, a little tough to get out, and when i finally pushed it out, I found that the left side, edge of the wedge, got scraped against the inside Arbor wedge slot, or the wedge slot on the barrel, however it scraped off the blueing, and or a skim coat of metal.

May I have your advice as to , fixing a Second Gen Colt? I understand making a plug for the inside of the barrel, to fix Arbor fitment, but would it be Blasfamous , to mod this piece?

Also, in my case, the Second Gen “C” Series being superior , to the “F” does not seem to be the case.My “F” series Dragoon, appears to be built a bit better, although the cylinder does not spin,like a Hockey puck gliding in ice, like the 1851 Navy does

Gino753, I don't think correcting ANY open top revolver is "detrimental". They shoulda built them "correctly" to begin with
!! I'm in the middle of posting a pictorial of the "Outlaw Mule" "custom" I'm doing on Dickydalton's very limited, pristine, 2nd Gen Rbt. E. Lee Commemorative (made 1971). You ought to take a look.

Mike

 

[Gino753]

Gino753, I don't think correcting ANY open top revolver is "detrimental". They shoulda built them "correctly" to begin with
!! I'm in the middle of posting a pictorial of the "Outlaw Mule" "custom" I'm doing on Dickydalton's very limited, pristine, 2nd Gen Rbt. E. Lee Commemorative (made 1971). You ought to take a look.

Mike

Thats cool…I almost bought that set, I got my plain 2nd Gen 1851 “ C” series because I did not want the “Commemorative markings on the side of the gun.Although beautiful..I wanted it to be like I went back in time and bought one of these..as close as possible anyway…so what im doing is having William Shumate, make me a historically correct wooden display box, with the set of instructions on the lid , like Was presented in the 18th Century

Is it possible for you to fix the Arbor issue on my guns without any of the modern bells and whistles? Basically make the Arbor fit supported like it was supposed too.

 

[45D]

Can you fix both of my guns pleas

Yessir. I'd be happy to. I'll be putting the final pictures up later of Dickys "build". I'll pm you.

Mike

 

[Gino753]

Yessir. I'd be happy to. I'll be putting the final pictures up later of Dickys "build". I'll pm you.

Mike

That sounds great, im still waiting for my LTC, so I think this will be a good idea to protect my investment…in that i can do what I wanted origionally, and actually shoot these.The “F” Series Dragoon is pretty tight, and I’m very impressed with its build, and think it would be a very nice Canvas for you

The 1851 “C” series is really nice too, but with the “Blown Through” hole from the Arbor Bore, peeking through to under the loading lever, and the Arbor being short..ehh..I love the gun, and the cylinder spins nice and smooth, and the hammer cocks smooth, not many burrs

Im sure my Deagoon, is short as well, i did a sloppy measure, and thought that I was ok, but im sure your right

It needs to be made right

 

[Smokerr]

Mike, is that on this site? If not I would like to be included PM wise. Its a fascinating aspect even if I am reluctant to get into that depth of work.

If I don;t know what I am doing I like to make it temporary so I can regroup.

 

[45D]

Mike, is that on this site? If not I would like to be included PM wise. Its a fascinating aspect even if I am reluctant to get into that depth of work.

If I don;t know what I am doing I like to make it temporary so I can regroup.

Yes, it's titled "Dickydalton's Robert E. LEE . . . "



Mike

 

[dickydalton]

Thats cool…I almost bought that set, I got my plain 2nd Gen 1851 “ C” series because I did not want the “Commemorative markings on the side of the gun.Although beautiful..I wanted it to be like I went back in time and bought one of these..as close as possible anyway…so what im doing is having William Shumate, make me a historically correct wooden display box, with the set of instructions on the lid , like Was presented in the 18th Century

Is it possible for you to fix the Arbor issue on my guns without any of the modern bells and whistles? Basically make the Arbor fit supported like it was supposed too.

Mike has also done two other C-Series Colts for me One an 1851 and the other a 3rd Dragoon.

 

[dickydalton]

And an 1862 Navy, an 1861 Navy, an Uburti Whitneyville Dragoon and an 1860 Army....