New (to me) CVA Mountain Rifle!

[Jim C]

Thanks Rifleman, I'll definitely check 'em out.

 

[jamieorr]

My Lyman Trade Rifle shoots a .490 ball with a .010 patch and it's a tight fit. I don't see how I could load either a .495 ball or .015 patch. I do recall the Lyman literature said the actual bore can vary between barrels so I guess I've got a tight one, sounds as if you have a similarly tight CVA.

I'm going to try .490 cast balls later this spring, wondering if there will be enough shrinkage to make a difference.

Jamie

 

[Jim C]

That's a real live possibility Jamie, and thanks for the idea. Because the cast balls do shrink as they're cooling. I'll do all I can to try and get these swaged balls that I already have to work because I have a butt load of them, but if they won't I'll be looking for a retailer that offers 490 cast and try that out.

 

[necchi]

Because the cast balls do shrink as they're cooling.

Sorry friend,, that's a myth.

 

[swathdiver]

Thanks for the photos. I saw that one on GB a few months ago, a real beauty. It was built between 1979 and 1984, probably '79-'80.

You are an excellent candidate for our very own Dutch Schoultz's "The System".

Not all .015 patches are the same.

 

[Jim C]

I've never heard that it's a myth before, but I have read more than once in different articles on the subject of bullet casting that they do in fact shrink a minute amount while cooling.

 

[Jim C]

Yep, that's where I got it alright. How can you tell by looking at the pics approx when it was made?

I do have a dial caliper that I measure the thickness of my patches and size of my bullets with. It measures inside diameters as well and I've tried measuring bore dia/groove depth also but have such a hard time holding it correctly that I don't know whether I'm getting a correct measurement or not most of the time.

 

[bubba.50]

I've never heard that it's a myth before, but I have read more than once in different articles on the subject of bullet casting that they do in fact shrink a minute amount while cooling.

modern roundball moulds are cut to allow for the shrinkage that occurs when the molten lead cools when usin' pure soft lead. that's one of the reasons balls cast from alloys are hard if not impossible to load usin' yer regular loadin' techniques. because the harder alloys don't shrink as much when they cool.

and by the way, that is a beautiful mountain rifle ya have there.

 

[necchi]

on the subject of bullet casting

Yep, but as said above, bullets usually use an alloy,
Pure lead round ball is a different critter, any "minuet" shrinkage may not even be measurable with a common mans micrometer or caliper with .001 tolerances.
You buy a 490 mold your gonna get 490 ball, or at least so close you won't know the difference. :wink:
:v
The thing is even worrying about any difference in your mold doesn't matter,, consistency is the key,, If your mold casts 489.9 or 490.01 it doesn't matter, as long as they're the same all the time.
Now moving from 490 to 495, can make a huge difference,, it all depends on what your rifle and your loading regime works best for that rifle.

 

[Jim C]

Thank you for the compliment on the MR......

I think I'm gonna get geared up here pretty soon to cast my own. The Hornady's at Mid South Shooters Supply are not too high at $11 per hundred, but I can still cast my own for half that plus get the enjoyment out of "rolling" my own. :grin:

 

[Nativearizonan]

Sounds like then that the bore dia/groove depths vary quite a bit from rifle to rifle w/ the CVA MR.

My rifle does have the made in USA label on the barrel. I wonder if they were using different barrels then (yeah, I know), or if it is just a variation from one barrel to the next. One would think with modern machines there would be no variation like that, but maybe there is.

I have a friend, also with a CVA MR he built from a kit in the '70s, who told me he had a whole bunch of .490 balls cast up. He has a bad right shoulder now and doesn't shoot it. He offered me some of his RBs, so I may take him up on it, just to see if I notice any difference. I have plenty of Hornadys, but it might be interesting just to try them.

 

[Jim C]

I believe now that mine was made in Spain. Although it has no other markings whatsoever, when I had the lock plate off cleaning it yesterday, on the inside bottom of the plate it has in really tiny letters "SPAIN" stamped on it. It's still really strange to me though why it would not have any Spanish proof marks.
I don't really know if there were any tolerance variations in the bore/rifling grooves. The only one I've ever personally seen and handled is mine and I ve never heard of anyone else discussing it.
By all means give those cast balls a sling. Who knows? They may very well be just the ticket for a tack driver.

 

[Zonie]

It would be very uncommon for a rifle/ smoothbore or sidelock pistol to have a proof mark marked on the lock.

The lock is not proof tested.
Only the barrel is tested so, if the country where the barrel was made requires proof testing, successfully passing the test results on the barrel being marked.

The United States does not require proof testing so if the barrel was made here it won't be marked even if it was tested by the maker.

 

[swathdiver]

Having had more than a few CVA rifles, they were very consistent in bore and groove diameters. Both Big Bore Fifty Fours for example are right on at the published .541 bore diameter at the muzzle.

CVA's manufacturing process was such that it did away with the requirement for proofing and therefore the proof marks. Cannot recall exact process but it's here on these pages.

Some have said that only the first several hundred guns were US made. All of the 4 and 6 screw pointy patch box guns that I've seen had Made in the USA stamped on their barrel. According to their catalogs, this was from 1976 until 1978. The '79 and later guns use the 2 screw patch box and this was also the year the .54s and .58s were introduced. Never seen an original one of these with a Made in the USA barrel.

Near 40 years has passed since these came out, anything is possible as they are easily modified and made serviceable with parts.

The Lyman GPR owes its existence to the CVA Mountain Rifle.

 

[Jim C]

"It's still really strange to me though why it would not have any Spanish proof marks."

LOL! Should have made that statement a little bit more clear. I didn't mean to imply that the lock should be proof marked. What I meant was, that if there are no other markings anywhere else except for the "SPAIN" stamped on the lock, that that would tend to indicate that the rifle was in fact made in Spain, but still, it has no Spanish proof marks on the underside of the barrel at the breech like for instance, the Italian proof marks that are on the GPR's. I have always been under the impression that most all European firearms/barrel makers are required by law to proof their barrels. I suppose it's not impossible though for a few here and there to slip through the cracks so to speak. After all, even monkey's have been known to fall from tree's from time to time. :grin:

 

[Jim C]

"CVA's manufacturing process was such that it did away with the requirement for proofing and therefore the proof marks. Cannot recall exact process but it's here on these pages".

I too read the exact same thing you're referring to on this forum as well, but neither can I remember exactly how it was that whomever was stating it said that they got around the proofing process. I will look that up again on here and re read it to clarify, but w/o documentation of some sort I'd still tend to lean towards the belief that that statement is just merely heresay.
As for bore/groove depth measurements, I have a dial caliper that also does inside measurements but I have such a tough time with holding it correctly on the lands and in the grooves, that I'm not really confident about whether I'm getting an accurate measurement or not. If I knew those exact measurements for certain I think it might help go a long way towards choosing the correct ball/patch combination and maybe eliminate a lot of the trial and error process involved in getting to the rifles preferred load seeing how this particular rifle is being so finicky to load for. I think it would be easier to "slug" the bore and get those measurements off of the removed lead slug instead.

 

[Nativearizonan]

I seem to remember reading they got around the proofing by importing barrels uninstalled, and then installed them in the US.

My rifle has the Made in USA label, but the later version two screw capbox. It doesn't look to be messed with, so I assume it was made during some transitional period or maybe they were out of the one style of patch box and had the two screw available so they stuck one on there. It is so hard to say at this point. I haven't ever seen my friend's MR, but if he brings it out I'll try to get some info on it. I think he knows what year he bought it and it was in the 1970s.

Slugging the bore on the MR won't be easy because there seems to be a problem with taking out the breech plug. Maybe you could drill a slug and run a small bolt through it so you could pull it back out from the front. That sounds like a lot of work for trying to find a .0001 or .0002 difference.

The difference could just be in the patch lube we are using, and/or particulars of the patching cloth rather than the bore. I would thing a tightly woven .010 would fit tighter than a loosely woven one. I have been using unbleached muslin that I miked before I bought it.

 

[Jim C]

What I'm trying to avoid is putting a lot of money into materials that will end up being useless to me as you can't just buy a little of anything, it all usually comes in no less than a hundred and the stuff ain't cheap.
Where do you get unbleached muslin? I want to start buying and cutting my own patch material, both shooting and cleaning patches. I already know that the best cleaning patches should be 100% cotton flannel.
BTW, does your rifle by any chance have a Spanish made lock?

 

[Nativearizonan]

I bought the patching at WalMart.

I took the lock off mine and it does not say Spain. It only has the number 433 printed on the inside of the lock plate.

 

[necchi]

Bottom line, if your barrel has no marking at all chances are very good that someone has filed them all off when they browned it, IIRC you already came to that conclusion.

You can believe what you want about the CVA MR, but I will say that the most complete list of information about them available on the internet can be in the two topics started by member Walks Alone,, if you want the facts as they are best known by those that have done the first hand research it's in those topics and all the links in those topics, the problem we are currently facing is two fold,, CVA destroyed the records when they moved the plant and the men that created the MR are dead,, Deer Creek Products have always been CVA's warranty and repair shop and the previous owners had a lot of knowledge about the MR.
There is a lot of myth about the MR, folks just don't want the facts.