New to ML-Am I doing it right?

[DixieRambler]

I am new to muzzle loading and the forum. I am an avid shooter and collector of modern firearms, but have always wanted to get into muzzle loading. A few years ago, I was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I was able to purchase part of a large firearms collection that had a Traditions .50 Hawken, never fired. It sat in my safe since I brought it home. I decided to get it out and shoot it. I spent a few days reading and studying what I should do. I purchased the following since all I had was the gun itself.

Hodgdon Triple Seven Powder
#11 Primer Caps
T17 Cleaning Kit
Thompson Incremental Measure
20 Rds of TC Maxi-Ball, 320 Grains

I proceeded to clean it up with the T17 kit and got it nice and clean. The salesman at my LGS suggested the 320 grain maxi balls loaded with 80 grains of powder. I was able to download a loading chart from Traditions that indicated 100 grains for a 300 grain maxi-ball. Is 80 grains enough for a 320 grain maxi-ball? I shot it today loading 100 grains. I was getting 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards with a few 4-5 inch groups. I will be using it to hunt this year during our muzzle loading season. Just wanted to hear any thoughts as to whether I am approaching this correctly. Hope I have provided enough information and I look forward to being a part of the muzzle loading community. Thanks for looking. Jim

 

[Bugflipper]

Those groups are pretty big. Sounds like it must have a 1-48" twist barrel. If you want to go with bullets the shorter 250 gr real bullets from lee would match the twist better. The big groves in muzzleloader bullets are for lube. That's a subject all in itself, most folks mix their own or buy some sort of bore butter or the like. If it's working fine then ther'e's really not a need to go out and buy more stuff. With synthetic black powder sometimes #11 magnum caps are needed as they have a hotter ignition. If all you have local is synthetic then pyrodex rs lights off a hair quicker than 777. If you have real black powder such as goex locally then buy it next time. It is less corrosive to the barrel and lights off quicker. Speaking of the corrosiveness make sure to clean right after you shoot it. Rust forms quick with the synthetics. Remove nipple, put hot soapy water in a bucket and a bore mop or tight fitting patch making a suction in the barrel like a bicycle pump bringing the water to the top of the barrel. After you feel like it's good and clean do a change of water and do it again so you can see that there is no more black coming out of the barrel. The barrel should be hot by now aiding in drying, run a dry patch or two through it and then a lube of your choice on a patch. Cleaning is very important with muzzle loaders because they will rust up quickly, leading to pitting. This makes one a pain in the butt to load and may turn it into a bad shooter.

Balls are much cheaper for practice and they are enough for deer in your 50 as well if you wanted to use them. I'll have to admit I use conicals as well sometimes though to get a little more range or make up for a smaller caliber. On balls I'd suggest starting at 50 gr and work your way up in 5 gr increments to find the best group, most of the time you will have a sweet spot at the low side and somewhere up near the high side. For instance 50gr and 80 gr. that would be your target load and hunting load. Since conicals are more expensive I'd test them from 80-100 gr and see what is the most accurate group for hunting. Also pay attention where the first round hits from a clean bore as that's the most important when hunting. The best advise I can give you is mark your rod at the level that it sticks out of the barrel while it's loaded. Lot's of hooks have loaded one twice and gotten hurt. If after best accuracy swab the bore in between shots with a non moist cleaning patch.
Good luck.

 

[Walks with fire]

I had a TC Hawken years ago and I used 90 grains of Goex 2f, .490 ball and store bought .018 patches. Probably was TC Bore Butter lube at the time. I remember it was 90 grains and sighted for 90 yards. Groups were better than my Winchester 30-30 would do. About 1 1/2". I still to this day wish I had it back.

 

[Patocazador]

I have two .50 cal. Hawkens, a T/C and a Sile. The T/C has a 1:48 twist an the Sile has a ~ 1:24. They both shoot Maxiballs very accurately. I use real 3F black powder and a load between 75 and 90 grs. has always worked well . I've killed about a dozen deer with these guns and Maxiballs.

I would suggest switching to black powder if it is available locally. Just as in reloading modern cartridges, graduating with 5 gr. increases from 75 up to 90 gr. would be where I'd start. Then I'd try a wad between bullet and powder. If none of that gives you 2"-3" groups, try a REAL or a patched ball but only change one thing at a time or you won't know what the fix really is.

Good luck.

 

[rafterob]

I found the shorter 250 gr. maxi was easier to start and shot better in my Traditions Hawken. But I stopped using maxi balls in it years ago and only shoot round balls now. 80-100 grains is a good load range for conicals. I shoot 70 grains with a round ball. The Traditions barrels are rifled pretty deep so I would recommend a wad of some sort over the powder when using the maxi balls.

 

[DixieRambler]

Thanks for the suggestions and replies. I'll try the 250 grain bullets at 80-100 grains and see what happens. Thanks again, Jim

 

[crockett]

Dixie- one more thing you need to be aware; the heavier the bullet the higher the internal pressure, you can use more powder with a lighter conical as the pressures will be less. On that 320 gr- I'm not sure but 80 grains of powder might be pretty near maximum.
I'm going to talk a little about patched round balls. At 50 yards they will flatten out like a quarter and create a lot more damage than you might suppose. The conical may or may not expand. As a general rule, the feeling is that once you start shooting over 70 yards the conical starts to become more effective than a patched round ball. The trouble is, over 70 yards can be a long shot in some wooded areas and the open sights on a muzzle loader might work on long distances at a shooting range but in the woods they can be more difficult to use.
The conical can also be harder to reload. In my experience you really need to swab the bore a couple of times before reloading a conical. A patched round ball seldom produces this problem.
On clean up, the cloth patch prevents lead fouling in the bore, something to consider with the conical.
So...1. Safer presures, higher initial velocity, no lead fouling, easy reloading, and lower cost. There are a LOT of reasons to go with a patched round ball. save the conicals for the day you go elk or moose hunting.

 

[Billnpatti]

Well, first of all, I am an avid advocate for real black powder......when you can get it. I also prefer to use patched round balls in a muzzleloading rifle. However, when you are getting those kinds of results from your change of triple 7 and a Maxiball, who can argue with success? I think you have found your hunting load. Now all you need is a deer in your sights at 100 yards or LESS. Don't forget the "or less" part. A muzzleloading rifle is good for ethical shots only out to about 100 yards. After that, you have a serious risk of the bullet having lost enough kinetic energy to only wound a deer. Then you will have a heck of a job tracking the wounded deer down or knowing that there is an animal out there suffering and slowly dying for nothing more than buzzard bait. As an ethical hunter, you most assuredly do not want that.

Good hunting to you. :hatsoff:

 

[Spikebuck]

Dixie Rambler: I'd say it sounds as though you are starting out well. Just need to refine the load a bit. I have used 777 extensively in percussion guns and really like it. You can, however, generally get real black powder at a lower cost from one of the mail order places like Powder Inc if you will be shooting enough to reasonably use up 5# or greater (to spread the cost of the hazmat/shipping).

Another good shorter conical is the Hornady PA Hunter. They are pretty reasonably priced for a conical and should shoot well out of a 1-48 twist. For $15, might be worth a try. If you search the web you may find a better price yet...and someone that actually has them in stock.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/7...s-50-caliber-512-diameter-240-grain-box-of-50

Glad to have you on the forum, and good shooting!

 

[Rifleman1776]

Those groups are pretty big.

:shocked2: "pretty big"???
For an ml those groups would be winners at most competitions. Of course, I prefer he use patched round balls but he is doing what the gun shop salesman said to do. And, we all know gun shop salesmen know everything there is to know about ml'ing. :rotf: Accuracy wise, he is doing fine right now.

 

[cynthialee]

Sounds good.

Let me also chime in and advocate the patched round ball.
It is plenty to kill deer. Less recoil than with a conical. No lead fouling in the barrel. Lower cost per shot vs. a conical. You can shoot more shots before swabbing. (I still swab between every shot.) Lower lube costs as the patch only needs a small amount but them conicals need lube in the grooves so it eats up the lube faster. (unless you have store bought conicals, but they are spendy)

Black powder is preferable, but not absolutely needed as you have already discovered.

Good shooting!

 

[MattC]

An idea that I found a little difficult is that with muzzleloaders, more is not always better. You are looking for the Right amount of powder, not necessarily the Most. Your particular gun might like 10 grains less than the same gun sitting right next to it.

 

[Billnpatti]

I forgot to mention an excellent source for information on obtaining the maximum accuracy from your rifle. Go to this site www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com and order Dutch's accuracy system. He will put you way ahead on your search for accuracy from your rifle. It will be the best $20 you will ever spend on muzzleloading. Dutch will answer all of your muzzleloading accuracy questions and give you an email and phone number where you can contact him with special questions. I have a copy and it is my muzzleloading accuracy bible. :hatsoff:

 

[DixieRambler]

Dixie- one more thing you need to be aware; the heavier the bullet the higher the internal pressure, you can use more powder with a lighter conical as the pressures will be less. On that 320 gr- I'm not sure but 80 grains of powder might be pretty near maximum.
I'm going to talk a little about patched round balls. At 50 yards they will flatten out like a quarter and create a lot more damage than you might suppose. The conical may or may not expand. As a general rule, the feeling is that once you start shooting over 70 yards the conical starts to become more effective than a patched round ball. The trouble is, over 70 yards can be a long shot in some wooded areas and the open sights on a muzzle loader might work on long distances at a shooting range but in the woods they can be more difficult to use.
The conical can also be harder to reload. In my experience you really need to swab the bore a couple of times before reloading a conical. A patched round ball seldom produces this problem.
On clean up, the cloth patch prevents lead fouling in the bore, something to consider with the conical.
So...1. Safer presures, higher initial velocity, no lead fouling, easy reloading, and lower cost. There are a LOT of reasons to go with a patched round ball. save the conicals for the day you go elk or moose hunting.

Crockett. Thanks for the very informative reply. Well explained. I will try some round balls as well. Everyone has been helpful on this site. Thanks again. Jim

 

[DixieRambler]

Those groups are pretty big.

:shocked2: "pretty big"???
For an ml those groups would be winners at most competitions. Of course, I prefer he use patched round balls but he is doing what the gun shop salesman said to do. And, we all know gun shop salesmen know everything there is to know about ml'ing. :rotf: Accuracy wise, he is doing fine right now.

Kinda glad to hear that! Although I would prefer tighter groups, I was satisfied with what I got at 100 yards. To be honest, I know very little about ML, but I came away from the gun store thinking I new a little more than the salesman. Problem is, a lot of the gun shops around here only carry a small assortment of black powder items. We have two Bass Pro shops, but both are about an hour from me. I went ahead and got the 320 grain Maxi-Balls since that is all my local gun store had.Gonna make the trip to Bass Pro tomorrow to see what they have. Thanks for taking the time to respond. Jim

 

[DixieRambler]

I did see this and plan to order today. Thanks for the reply. Jim

 

[cynthialee]

You will have better success in finding your shooting supplies from online sources.

 

[Bugflipper]

Well, first of all, I am an avid advocate for real black powder......when you can get it. I also prefer to use patched round balls in a muzzleloading rifle. However, when you are getting those kinds of results from your change of triple 7 and a Maxiball, who can argue with success? I think you have found your hunting load. Now all you need is a deer in your sights at 100 yards or LESS. Don't forget the "or less" part. A muzzleloading rifle is good for ethical shots only out to about 100 yards. After that, you have a serious risk of the bullet having lost enough kinetic energy to only wound a deer. Then you will have a heck of a job tracking the wounded deer down or knowing that there is an animal out there suffering and slowly dying for nothing more than buzzard bait. As an ethical hunter, you most assuredly do not want that.

Good hunting to you. :hatsoff:

Well manure I just found out I'm unethical. Guess I'll have to start poaching them with the muzzleloaders instead of hunting them. :grin:

 

[S.Kenton]

Well, first of all, I am an avid advocate for real black powder......when you can get it. I also prefer to use patched round balls in a muzzleloading rifle. However, when you are getting those kinds of results from your change of triple 7 and a Maxiball, who can argue with success? I think you have found your hunting load. Now all you need is a deer in your sights at 100 yards or LESS. Don't forget the "or less" part. A muzzleloading rifle is good for ethical shots only out to about 100 yards. After that, you have a serious risk of the bullet having lost enough kinetic energy to only wound a deer. Then you will have a heck of a job tracking the wounded deer down or knowing that there is an animal out there suffering and slowly dying for nothing more than buzzard bait. As an ethical hunter, you most assuredly do not want that.

Good hunting to you. :hatsoff:

Well manure I just found out I'm unethical. Guess I'll have to start poaching them with the muzzleloaders instead of hunting them. :grin:

Not sure there is really any ethical way to "kill".. however those groups sound fine to me.Whatever your doing it seems to be working well for you, I would however try a 490 round ball, .015 patch and some Goex fff powder for somthing different and for cheap plinking. Play around with the load/patch combos until ya find a load your rifle likes. The "playing around" part is most of the fun anyhow!
Welcome to our forum and have fun!

 

[don hepler]

3-4 inch group at 100 yard, with an open sighted gun, would make me a "Happy Camper". I belong to a shooting club, and they're are very few people that can shoot a 3-4 inch group, with a open sighted rifle of any kind. I've worked public sight-in days for the public, where they pay a fee to sight in their rifles prior to hunting season, and I have been doing this for at least 30 years. Not many people shoot any better.