New Toy, New Member, New To Muzzleloading!

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

(This is a conglomeration of three posts I put on my modern firearms boards before I found this place... I hope you'll forgive the copy'n'paste, but I really need the answers and don't want to miss anything. I wrote these right after I did each thing.)

I was out looking to do some trading today.

I had in mind a .410 double shotty, but anything that caught my eye would work.

Wound up with this:

I've never owned a muzzleloader before. This one was used, but aside from a bit of rust, looked good.

I would have liked to have had a wooden stock and a lefty action, but for the deal I couldn't pass it up. Besides

the rifle, I got 200 percussion caps, an unopened container of Shockey's Gold Sticks (the man said they wouldn't

work in a sidelock, but they seem to function just fine), and 60 saboted 99% pure lead bullets.

I took it out and shoved one of the powder sticks down the tube after verifying there wasn't a charge in it

already. Then I put a wad in it.

Checking for function before live ammo is used is a priority for me.

The cap went "pop" and the main charge didn't light. At this point I was thinking "manure, the guy was right." I

tried a few more primers to to avail.

Decided to take a pick to the nipple again, and I paid closer attention. It didn't seem to go all the way through.

Hmmm...

So the nipple came off. It was clogged with rust. I mean, it looked like somebody had poured iodine in there.

I had to use a drill and actual bit to get it out.

So I went back out, put the nipple back on, primed it, and the charge went "POOF!"

Awesomeness.

So this time I tried an actual bullet.

"BOOM!" Nice kick, about like a light 20 gauge, if that.

It's a 1:48" twist, so I'll probably just end up making some cotton patches and using .452" bullets I cast for my

1911 in this thing. They should work just fine on deer if I go this season.

I'd like to shoot balls, and though I know it won't be as accurate as a slower twist, I figure I'll experiment.

Should be fun!

********************************

Later.....

********************************

I got some round balls today.

Played around with my new balls, and found they like light to medium weight cotton T-shirt material with a bit of

spit on the patches. Odd I guess, but it works.

I found after five shots with a non-lubed patch, accuracy went to hell. If I spit on each patch, it stayed clean

enough for 10 consecutive shots.

Here is what I did:

Sitting, 50yds.

I think this is good for a muzzleloader with open sights from a sitting position. I do not honestly know.

Thoughts?

What kind of speed do you suppose I'm producing with 50gns of Shockey Gold under a 177gn LRB? The Shockey's in

stick form, but I crush it up a bit with the ramrod, so it has complete combustion.

My final comment is that I'm just really glad this is performing with round balls. I tend to be a bit of a

traditionalist (thus the sidelock, and only using the Shockey sticks because that's what was included; I will be

switching to Pyrodex or 777 when they're gone - can't find real BP around here). I was hoping I could use these

and not have to go to Minie Ball. This just seems, well, more fun. Also, a very kind gent is sending me a mold

for this ball, so I'll not often be out of ammunition!

Any thoughts or help?

**********************

Even later...

**********************

Is a .490" PRB over 50gn BP or equivalent humane for deer? These sights were never regulated, and I'd like to go

ahead and get them done.

However, once they're regulated, they're regulated. I'll be taking material from the front sight, and there's no

putting it back, although I guess I could always take more off for a heavier powder charge.

Where would I be at 25, 75, and 100yds with a PRB over 50gns BP or equivalent with a 50 yard sight in?? Rise and

drop?

How about the same distances, but with a 70gn charge? 100gn (max) charge?

I have no illusions about the limitations of this rifle. Though I know it would probably be effective to 150 to

200yds, I'm not ever going to try that. I figure the ball would be losing velocity too quickly by then and where I

hunt, most shots are inside 60yds.

Thanks folks!

Josh

 

[rafterob]

Some basic guidelines for your .50 caliber. .490 roundball,tight weave 100% cotton patch, Starting loads of 50 gr. ffg or 45 grn. fffg Black powder. Many lubes available the cheapest of which are Crisco or spit. That rifle may shoot conicals or the unmentionable plastic jacketed things.You are doing right at this point to experiment. Its ok to use up that Shockey's stuff but once that is gone get real black if you can. If you need to use a sub look for Pyrodex or 777.Round balls are the cheapest to shoot.

 

[ebiggs1]

Josh, welcome to the forum,
This is the place to get “traditional” muzzle loading questions asked.
My favorite load in a similar rifle is:
Pyrodex RS or GOEX Pinnacle 2f. I use 70 ”“80 grs and this is granulated powder, not pellets.
I use .018 pillow patches with Bore Butter and I like wetter more than dryer for the patches.
I also use Hornady 490 round balls and either CCI or Remington caps.
I don’t wipe between shots as the Bore Butter keeps the fouling soft.
That is a nice group for 50 yards! Especially if you were just sitting and holding the gun.
My limit, I set for myself is 75 yards and as a matter of fact I passed on an eight point yesterday that was just a bit too far. Man did that take fortitude!

 

[Zonie]

Welcome to the forum.

I am surprised you got the pellets to fire.

They are designed to be ignited from the rear where there is usually a 'starter' compound that is mainly black powder and many sidelock guns cap flashes either don't impinge on it or have lost enough heat by the time it reaches them that they don't fire.
In the future, use the granulated Pyrodex or 777.
All of the testing I've seen done reported that the Shockey Gold was the weakest of all of the black powder substitutes so expect a noticabley greater recoil when using Pyrodex and an ever greater amount with 777.
777 by the way is noted for burning patches and a burned patch will produce very poor accuracy.
I'd suggest you stick with either Pyrodex RS or P.

I would wait until you start shooting Pyrodex before adjusting the sights. I've got a feeling that by just switching to it your group will be about 2 inches higher at 50 yards so you'll be hitting dead center at that range.

Using "magnum" percussion caps will also help assure a 100 percent light off with the synthetic black powders. They require a much higher temperature flame than real black powder and the magnum caps were designed to provide it.

I'm also surprised that your T shirt patches are giving you those nice groups. Usually a T shirt patch will tear because the cotton fibers were made for comfort, not for wear resistance.
If you can find a cloth store around where you live ask them if they have any "pillow ticking" or "duck" material. The duck material is used for making pockets.
Both of these are much thicker than a T shirt and will be harder to start but they give great accuracy.

Cut the material into 1 1/4 inch squares for your patches. Squares work just as well as round patches.

Try using some Crisco, Olive Oil or just plain vegetable cooking oil for a patch lube.
Any of these will provide the lubrication your patch needs and they will help to keep the fouling soft.

Your .50 caliber gun will like .490 diameter balls patched with the material I just mentioned.

It won't like your .452 diameter slugs and it won't like the hard lead that is used for pistol and rifle bullets. It will like the purest softest lead you can find at the local scrap yard.
The lead used with dental X-rays works very well and most dentists are happy to get rid of it for free.

IMO, a 50 grain powder load is a bit weak for deer but loads in the 60-80 grain range will work nicely out to 100 yards.

Your plastic stocked guns stock is a bit light and the better powder and larger powder charges may cause a bit of recoil. Many of the folks around here who own one of these guns has added some lead shot or slugs to the cavities inside the butt. You may want to consider that.

All in all, it looks like your on the road for some great adventures and a Hell of a lot of fun.
Shooting these sidelocks brings new life to the whole realm of shooting.

 

[Eterry]

Welcome to the forum and to muzzleloading Josh. I bought a Traditions M/L similar to yours in 54 caliber several years ago, the price was too good to pass up. Its a good shooter with balls, and looks like yours is too.

Here's a couple tips; get some pillow ticking from the fabric shop and cut it in squares or strips and use as patching. T-shirts are a little thin and burn through causing poor accuracy. I usually use spit for lube, just use something or you might get a ball stuck half way down...trust me it sucks. NEVER ATTEMPT TO SHOOT A STUCK BALL OUT OF THE BARREL! Its bad ju-ju.

The .490 balls are the way to go instead of using the .452 LRN you run through your 1911. Also get some pure lead, try a scrap yard or recycle center and ask for pure lead, wheel weights are too hard. If you can cut it with your thumbnail its soft enough.

I have no experience with Shockeys Gold but if it is equal to black powder a 50 grain charge is a good place to start, and based on your group works great. According to Lyman's muzzle loading manual a charge of 50 grs. of FFFg black powder shows 1348fps. in a 26" barrel, 70 grs is 1574fps and 100 grs is 1882fps.

Trajectory sighted in at 50 yards is as follows; 1300fps/ +.44" at 25 yds,-2.57" at 75yds, -7.70" at 100yds, -15.83" at 125yds.

1600fps/ +.15" 25yds, -1.68" 75yds, -5.31" 100yds, -11.30" 125 yds.

1900fps/ +.02" 25yds, -1.06" 75 yds, -3.55" 100 yds, -7.92" 125 yds.

If you reload for your 1911, then you may already know a lighter charge usually gets better groups, as your target shows. I dont have a 50 cal, but I recently posted asking for favorite loads and you can search it and see what the 50 cal shooters like.

Theres lots of good help on here if you have questions shout out and someone will help you.

Good luck,
Eterry

 

[Josh Smith]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies.

I did go ahead and set the sights before reading this. That's OK as I have them set at COM instead of target, and I can use either.

Thank Appleseed for those groups; shooting a muzzleloader is a lot easier using their style of shooting (traditional) vs the extreme precision 'scoped shooting I'm used to.

I use spit lube and round balls. Have a mold on the way.

I've heard enough about 777 that it will probably be my standby.

However, Shockey Gold was excelling in one area: I made up some paper cartridges to see how they'd act. Used the sticks. Those suckers lit right off and I didn't even have to tear the paper. Pretty accurate too. I was surprised - I used coffee filters for the paper, if anyone's wondering.

You know, I think I may be missing something from the back of the lock. Is there something besides the hammer that's supposed to hold the sear? There's an empty screw hole and the sear was rubbing.

For now I used a screw and a couple washers to fix the problem, and it's working nicely. But it's like one side of an axle is busted, if that makes sense.

As for seasoning the bore and such, I use a lanolin based item used on farm equipment, called Fluid Film. I have never in my life experienced something so persistently protective. It's like it just soaks in and stays there.

Speaking of traditional stuff, does anyone know if a wooden stock can be had for this rifle? I've never been one for plastic guns, and in fact, traded a plastic gun for the rifle, all the stuff that came with it, and a bunch of .22 ammo as I'm a rimfire addict as well.

Thanks!

Josh

 

[Zonie]

They did make a wooden stocked gun like yours but I don't think the stocks are available unless you could find one on the web somewhere.

Looking at the lower photo I don't see anything missing on the outside of the lock and it looks like both screws are protruding slightly behind the hammer as they should be.

If you've removed the lock, the sear is the part with the projecting arm sticking out. It should have some sort of spring at the rear of the lockplate that is pushing down on it. With some Italian locks and the Thompson Center locks this will be a coil spring. With most of the Italian, Spanish and the locks made in America this will be a U shaped leaf spring which is held in place with one screw at the top and a small projection that engages a slot in the lock plate. The lower leaf pushes against the sear. That's about all there is at the rear of the lock.

As you may know, ALL muzzleloaders need to be cleaned after they are shot. This includes those which used the Golden stuff.
Just soap and water is all you need to clean them followed by some sort of oil to protect the bare metal.

Noting that you are into reloading cartridge guns I must warn you. NEVER WEIGH OUT LOOSE SYNTHETIC POWDERS. They must be measured out by volume only.

The reason for this is all muzzleloading charges are given as something like 60 grains or 80 grains. That is the weight of the real black powder charge and it takes up a certain amount of volume.
The new synthetic powders are made so that a similar amount of volume will provide a similar amount of power however, the synthetic powders only weigh about 2/3 as much as real black powder.

If you weigh out 80 grains of loose Pyrodex it will take up about 33 percent more space and the load will be 133 percent more powerful than the black powder charge you thought you were getting.
Put another way, if you weigh out 80 grains of Pyrodex it will have the power (and volume) of 106 grains of real black powder.

When you start loading with loose powder be sure to get yourself an adjustable black powder measure. It will work fine with the synthetic powders.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello

Looks like it's called the "bridle". There's a spot for it, but there is no bridle in place.

I put a screw with a washer there for the time being.

Are these available to buy?

I didn't know that about volume vs weight. I do have a bunch of Lee powder dippers. Are there instructions on, say, the back of 777 (what I plan to use) for how many CCs to use?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Zonie]

If the outer end of the tumbler has a journal on it then your lock should most likely have a bridle to support it. I mention the journal because some of the less expensive Spanish locks didn't have a bridle and yes, you are correct. With that design, the tumbler is rather like a wheel with only one bearing supporting it.

I believe CVA was the importer of your gun and they no longer import side lock guns.
A place called Deer Creek (no web site) has bought up most of the parts for CVA's and may be able to supply you with the missing bridle. They would have to know the model of your gun.

Traditions took up importing the guns CVA had imported from Ardesa in Spain and they might also have the part.

While we are discussing the missing bridle perhaps some of our other members who own one of these rifles can chime in and let us know if their guns have a bridle on the tumbler?

I haven't looked at a 777 container but I haven't seen any Pyrodex or GOEX, Schutzen, Swiss or other containers that gives the weight/cc of black powder or recommended loads.

As for the amount of black powder per cc, I've seen it somewhere but I can't find it at the moment.
To get a good guess I've taken the cartridge capacity in cc'c that is listed in my "THE HANDLOADERS MANUAL OF CARTRIDGE CONVERSIONS" and the black powder loads that a standard cartridge will give as is shown in the Dixie Gunworks catalog and averaged the results.

It turns out that 1 cc of volume is equal to about 17 1/2 grains of black powder.
Although this isn't exact one of the nice things about black powder (and the synthetic powders) is they are fairly low energy propellants.

Unlike smokeless powder where 0.1 grains can make a tremendous difference the difference of even 2 grains of black powder can hardly be noticed.

Here is a link to our "Articles, Charts, Links" section which lists some common cartridge cases and the amount of powder they will 'throw'. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/247958/

Some folks solder a short piece or wire to them to serve as a handle.

According to the information in the link your .45ACP case will throw about 26 grains of black powder.

 

[CoyoteJoe]

I'm pretty sure the lock never originally had a bridle. Those guns were built to be sell as cheap as possible so skipping the bridle saved a few pennies.
Personally I would recommend Pyrodex if you can't get real blackpowder. The 777 is a rather hot and finicky powder, much more sensitive to minor variations in compression and general loading variations. No matter what powder you use you will need to throughly clean and oil the bore after a day of shooting.
I had one of those rifles at one time and though it shot very well I found that the pebble grain surface of the plastic stock tended to abrade my cheek even with light 50 grain loads. It would not be a pleasant rifle to shoot with heavier loads, at least not for me. :grin:

 

[KentuckyMan]

Josh Smith Welcome to the forum. That shooting looks very similar to what I produce with my Hawkins. I used ffg 60 grains starting off. It worked fine, but there was a little hang fire.
I later learn that it was the nipple had oil in it.
The best thing before you shoot is to pre fire your nipples before loading your gun. This will blase away any oil that might be blocking your nipples.

When ever you do use the fffg it will fire off very fast, and with more power. The max I can load in my gun is about 90 grain with fffg, however, I only got to about 60 grains of fffg.

With the ffg I can go about 101grain of powder, but the highest I ever went with my gun is about 75 grains..

The recoil goes up when ever you add more black powder, or change the Patch's thickness. I like to use 0.015" thickness for daily practices shooting. If I were to use this gun for hunting I might use 0.020" or 0.025". 70 grain of ffg or 60 grain of fffg.

Anyways, I was just giving you most of the commend knowledge about what I know form shooting my gun. There are lots of Guys who are more experiences in both hunting and shooting their guns.

Respect them and listen to them. You'll learn a lot form them.

HAVE FUN and God bless..

BE SAFE and TAKE CARE> :2

 

[rafterob]

CVA used the same lock plate for simple locks and the Bridled locks. Deer Creek sells a Lock Parts kit that has the bridle, screws, fly etc.. for the Set trigger locks. talk to Deer Creek and they will probably let you know if this will work for your Model. They may even have a wood stock appropriate for your gun. The unbridled locks will hold up pretty well for a long time but eventually because of the lack of stability will tend to open up the hole that the Tumbler shaft rides in. Then the tumbler will start riding the plate fore and aft causing extra friction.