New TVM

[rdstrain49]

The BBT (big brown truck) paid a visit yesterday, delivering my new TVM Iron Mounted Penn. Rifle. Cosmetics are ok,not great but ok.

First trip to the range was disappointing to say the least. Using Dutch's system, 5" groups at 50 yards. Never found any patches. Second trip to the range, switched back to spit patches. Groups improved, down to about 2 1/2", better but still not acceptable. This time I found two patches. Never in over 50 years of muzzleloading have I seen such perfect, huge, holes burned in the patches.

Tomorrow I'm going to use .445 ball in place of the .440 and start the whole process over. If that doesn't do it I'll be off to JoAnn's for a wider variety of patch material.

I always maintained that the most difficult horses to train ended up being the best mounts in the long run. Hope that holds true with this durned riflegun. I sure won't mind the cosmetic imperfections, many tho there may be, if I can only get it to shoot.

And no, there won't be any pictures, thank Photo Bucket.

 

[rich pierce]

What barrel does it have? You're on the right track looking for patches that are intact. In my experience that makes all the difference. Impossible to get good groups with blown patches.

 

[Dr5x]

RD Strain
You say you are using my System the day after you got the rifle.

You are using some patching that works for an earlier rifle You have not run the tests to learn what thickness of patching THIS rifle requires/

And On and On.
Switching to the .445 balls will make up for some of your too thin patching has caused.

5 inch groups with burned patches screame WAAAAAy too thin..

I'm amazed at how many people say they are using my System and then immediately show that they are using one of the peripheral suggestions and think that's it.

One of the people, a doctor, I did some of my experimentation with bought , apparentl, that I dental rifle from TVM back in the late '70's and we quickly had it with 1 inch groups. Great rifle, a beautiful rifle and a very pleasing rifle if you ever get around to applying The System.

Dutch Schoultz


Tssk

Dutch Schoultz

 

[rdstrain49]

Dutch, obviously I was not clear. I am in the very early stages of using your system, that is attempting to find the correct patch thickness, and am in no way being critical of your system. Once correct patch thickness is determined the rest will be comparatively easy. For now, it's back and forth to the fabric store.

I've got the moose milk made up and ready to go. In fact I'm using your nearly waterless cleaning system. I must admit I was a bit skeptical at first, but now am nearly converted. So far the results are very good and it's a lot less mess. I must admit that it is difficult to change after 50+ years of doing it one way.

I also have the first batch of patch lube ready. Now all I have to do is wait for JoAnn's to open.

By the way Dutch, I've read what you sent twice and must admit to having learned a thing or two. Just for fun I'm going to try the dry lubed patches ( some of which are the right fit ) on my smooth bore this morning.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Your first visit to the range with your new rifle may have been disappointing, but shouldn't have been surprising. Those sharp edges on the lands will cut patches for the first 100 or so shots.

Don't make too many changes until you have shot that gun some.

Be sure to wash that fabric you buy from Jo Ann's to get the sizing out. While the patch material is in the washer, put a small wad of steel wool on your cleaning jag (or a small piece of a green scrubbing pad, but you may need a smaller jag) and run it up and down the barrel to take a bit of the sharp corners off. Look at the crown for sharp edges. Fine sand paper on your thumb should smooth the barrel crown. Finally clean it to remove any shavings from the bore.

Expect to make several trips to the range before accuracy settles in.

 

[hanshi]

Although it's already been mentioned, I'll second the advice. A new barrel is bound to have some sharp areas on the lands and needs to be smoothed out. You can do this by shooting a couple hundred rounds; or more quickly with very fine steel wool or ScotchBrite pads. I've done this on a couple of rifles, one a TVM, and it does make a difference. That one TVM went on to become my favorite rifle.

I lube with mink oil and sometimes Hoppes BP lube. I load fairly tight prb that requires either .020" mattress ticking or .025" denim. These loads keep the bore dirty with only one shots worth of fouling. Generally, accuracy improves as the rifle is fired a good bit. It'll get better, believe me.

 

[rdstrain49]

Regarding the sharp edge etc., when necessary, I hand lap the bore. I have only found this necessary on rare occasion. Apparently this is one of those.

I have great hopes for this rifle. Although it has numerous cosmetic shortcomings, it comes to the shoulder better than any rifle I have ever owned or shot.

Make no mistake, just because it doesn't shoot sub moa out of the box I shall "endeavor to persevere". In one case I worked on a rifle for over two years to get it to shoot up to my expectations which it finally did.

I'm off to the work bench, then the shooting bench (south pasture). Life is truly good.

To all, thanks for the information and advice. Sit rep to follow.

 

[rdstrain49]

I started to lap the barrel and the first patch came out shredded, as did the second. I gave up on the lapping compound and went to valve grinding compound. This seemed to have the desired effect.

Some improvement. Groups have gone from 5 or 6 inches at 50 yards to 1.012" at 50 yards. Not great but much better, I'm starting to like this rifle, warts and all.

Recovered a few patches, while they were still damaged they showed great improvement.

For the time being I have settled on a ball patch combination that requires the use of a mallet to start the ball. Any tighter and the ball will start to be deformed. I am weighing the ball per instruction, holding them to a tolerance of -1 grain. I'm also measuring each ball in at least three places keeping a tolerance of not more than .0002". Don't know if that will make any difference, but I figure the more variables I can eliminate the easier it will be to find potential problems.

Using Dutch's nearly waterless cleaning system has won me over. Clean up is fast, easy and much less mess.

At this point I am confident that this new rifle will become a keeper, so confident in fact that I have started considering a name for her.

 

[Semisane]

........... I have started considering a name for her.

Reluctant Lady :wink:

 

[Dr5x]

RD,
I think that perhaps your patching material may be a tad too thick if you require a mallet to short start. However, too tight is way better than too loose.

I'm not certain how you can use a mallet without flattening the face of the lead ball. unless the part that touches the ball is concave to the same snap as the original ball.

I am surprised that TVM would deliver a rifle with rough bits of metal still there after riffling.

Your group of about 1 inch at 50 yards is surprisingly good from a new rifle which speaks well for the effect of a tight fitting patch/ball combination.

I think you are going to do just fine.
Quit complaining about the cosmetic flaws you mention.

My rifles after a year or two at the range looked like they had been through the wars.. People assumed my kit built T/C Hawken was an old original from a hundred years ago.

Keep us informed and try a slightly thinner 9Compressed measure) patch material so you can avoid the malle

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Dr5x]

People worry about their used patches being cut by the sharply edged rifling.

If the resultant groups from the firing that caused the cut patching are OK the cut patching should be of no concern unless, of course, you intend to reuse them.

Dutch Schoultz

 

[Semisane]

RD, ............Quit complaining about the cosmetic flaws you mention. ........ My rifles after a year or two at the range looked like they had been through the wars.. People assumed my kit built T/C Hawken was an old original from a hundred years ago. ......

That's fine for you (and me also) Dutch. But some guys like to baby their guns and keep them as pristine as possible.

RD, you have mentioned cosmetic imperfections several times, with no detail. A new rifle of that cost should not have any significant imperfections. You are obviously bothered by something. Why not give us the specifics, with pictures?

 

[hanshi]

You're doing great, in my book. I can't shoot a 1.012" group at 50 yards by using only ONE ball!

 

[bigted]

I too would be very interested in the imperfections in your TVM. I am ready to call in my order but now am curious as to your ( WARTS) and why this expensive a rifle would be anything but pristine from the builder.

I certainly will be letting them know that I expect a very nice specimen for the dollars spent with them.

Please do expound on your dissatisfied imperfections and the why of them not standing behind their products.

I've dealt with Shiloh and had PERFECT customer service and they completely stood behind their products ... I set customer satisfaction ideals and expectations on the great folks at Shiloh manufacturing ... This is going to be my mark and if they ( TVM) can't or will not be as good then I will be spending my hard earned dollars elsewhere.

thanks for your help and explaintion on your problems.

 

[Tom Compton]

Contact TVM first and see if what they say.

 

[Zonie]

While your ironing out the wrinkles in your new guns barrel, check the edges where the rifling and bore meet the muzzle crown.

I'm betting they are still sharp edges*.

With a small piece of 220 or 320 grit wet/dry silicone carbide (black color) sandpaper pressed into the muzzle with your thumb or finger, rotate your hand and the barrel back and forth.

This will quickly dull the sharp edges so they won't cut the patch when your loading.

If your fussy about having a the area shiny bright, a little instant gun bluing will fix it up nicely.

* After building over 16 muzzleloading rifles I've come to the conclusion that all new barrels, be they Green Mountain, Colerain, Getz or Rice have sharp rifling and sharp edges where the rifling meets the muzzle crown.

 

[SgtErv]

Was this a Rice barrel by chance? I had patch cutting problems for a while. Took me a while to figure out the same problem you're having. It is a .50 cal, has .016" grooves, 38" long.

I shoot 60~65 gr of Goex 3F, a .490 ball, .018 patches, and mink oil tallow. I have a bunch of .015 patches so I shoot with them sometimes, too. Sometimes those .015 patches burn through. Oddly, the accuracy with .015 remains fairly consistent, though not great, with those patches, meaning I'm not sure if the burn is affecting it much.

It took some troubleshooting and a pleasant phone call with the owner of Rice barrels. He was intrigued and wanted to help out the burn through/ cutting, and offered to replace the barrel should the experimentation not pan out. Moving up to .018 patches cured it, though. Hitting an 8 oz pop can at 75 yards consistently is acceptable accuracy for me.

I'm curious about the cosmetic issues with your TVM as well...is it just the design of the rifle or is it something else?

Either way, hope you get things straightened out. Sometimes to me it's pretty fun to do the problem solving part, especially if that problem solving requires a lot of shooting haha

 

[rdstrain49]

Zone, rifling at the crown is smooth as a babies butt, perfect, no sharp edges and a perfect star on the muzzle after firing.

Regarding cosmetics, some of the metal to wood fit is a bit proud. Not bad but not perfect, plus it took two days to get the ramrod off the rifle for the first time, extra caution as not to break it.

Dutch, I could probably start the patch and ball with the heel of my hand, but advancing years makes that hurt way too much. Further I agree that if the groups are good I don't care what the patches look like, although reusing them would reduce the per round cost.
Yes, I did radius the short starter and the jag I use on the ramrod to match the ball, did that on each caliber I have.
Regarding the sharp rifling, I was admittedly a bit surprised but really don't care all that much. After all I have nothing better to do, that is unless the grandkids come over, then it's forget the guns, grab the longbows and off we go.

Now to the heart of the matter. Had time for one group tonight before all light was lost. Same 50 yards, this time .888" center to center with failing light and a rising wind. I can now see light at the end of the tunnel. I am confident that this rifle will eventually shoot one hole groups at 50 yards. This is fast becoming my favorite rifle, and that from someone who has two vaults full of very fine rifles.

My advice if you are thinking about a TVM, get off the computer and get one ordered. Anything that shoots this well is a keeper, and I'm sure she haven't even come close to peaking. The best is yet to come.

Seems to me I had some complaints, but after looking at tonights group again, I'll be darned if I can remember what I was grumbling about.

What a rifle, I mean WHAT A RIFLE.

 

[azmntman]

Funny how a tight arsed group can make a poor fitting lock and/or too tight a ram rod seem REAL insignificant!! :thumbsup:

 

[Dr5x]

To save you some time , most folks end up somewhere between 7 to 1 and 8 to 1.

In my own experience you couldn't feel the lubricant but you could smell it..

I had always thought slicker was better but learned during a different experimental program that if its slick, the patch bal starts moving as soon as the powder starts to burn and frequently is gone down range before the powder has done its thing. A little resistance seems to help a lot.


In my own experience I had the best results with patching so lightly lubed you couldn't feel it in the cloth , you could only smell it.
When the patching is crushed between ball and bore, the minimal lubrication seems to come into play.

Dutch Schoultz