Newbie here - Question about cartridge loading and more

[StormTalon]

Hello Everyone! I recently acquired my first musket, a model 1777 Charleville reproduction from a friend of mine that is moving out of country along with a bunch of .662 and .672 musket balls. Anyway, I have done a lot of reading on it and am very excited to try it out, but I have come across a few inconsistencies that led me here with some questions before I do!

The big question I have is what is the correct way to load a paper cartridge? I looked up all the ways to make a cartridge (and made some pretty good looking ones!) and read about it and watched videos though I have come across 3 main ways people claim to load:

1. Pour in powder, put ball-in-cartridge into the musket, ball first.
2. Pour in powder, put ball-in-cartridge into the musket, empty powder side first.
3. Pour in powder, remove ball from the cartridge (some say with your mouth), ram the paper down the barrel and then the ball.

So which of these, if any, is the correct way to load? I have read from different sources that each way is the correct way to ensure wadding and safety when firing, so I am confused which is true. My friend never used cartridges so he could not tell me either way.

Also, when using a patch do you load:
1. Powder, patch, then ball
2. Powder, ball, then patch
My friend said the first, but he got into an argument with someone else on the range that insisted it is the second method.

My musket balls also have little tabs on one side (where they came off the mold I have read), so do I file those off or are they alright to shoot if they go in with the tab facing the inside of the barrel or the muzzle?

Also, what is the correct procedure when firing blanks? I figured I would try a few blanks before moving on to actual ammunition just to become comfortable with the flintlock system since it is a tad bit different than the ARs and AKs I am used to!

Any other tips would be greatly appreciated! Thank you all very very much!!!

 

[gwalker]

StormTalon, Welcome to the forum. Before long you will have a host of responses to your questions giving you sound information. For now, the correct procedure for loading paper cartridges is to tear the end of the cartridge off and dump the powder down the bore. Then when the paper cartridge is empty and without removing the paper cartridge from the muzzle, just shove the paper down the bore with the ball still inside, and drive the ball down to seat it on the powder. The paper around the ball will hold the ball firmly on top of the powder charge so that it will not migrate back through the bore towards the musket before firing the musket.

The answer to you second question is to dump the powder charge down the bore of your musket, center a lubed patch over the muzzle and place the ball on top of the patch, and then drive the patch and ball down the bore. The patch will wrap itself around the ball.

However, the argument at the range may have been a misunderstanding between your friend and the other individual. You do not need to use a lubed patch when loading a round ball in a musket (smooth bore, aka, no rifling). Back in the day, the old timers would pour the powder charge down the bore, and then follow that with some kind of wadding, such as part of a paper wasp nest, plug punched out of wool blanketing, or just a rolled up tuff of dry grass or tow. Run the 'wad' down on the powder and then place a ball in the muzzle and run it down on the wadding. Then follow the ball with another wad to make sure the ball does not work itself loose from the powder and first wadding, as you will soon see that the round balls will freely 'fall' down the bore without any patch wrapped around them. This is probably what prompted the disagreement at the range. One was talking about the need for wadding (patch) between the ball and powder, while the other was thinking of the wadding on top of the ball to prevent it from falling back towards the muzzle. In some respects, both were correct. You want to avoid any sort of air pocket between the ball and powder/wadding when you discharge the musket, otherwise you are putting yourself and others in harms way.

Firing blanks?...I'm not sure that is a good idea or even necessary. But if you do, you should put some type of wadding on top of the powder charge to not only hold it in place but to provide some sort of resistance to build up some pressure as the charge ignites. Firing blanks will quickly build up excess fouling in our bore. I suggest bypassing firing blanks and go directly to shooting either paper cartridges or patch round balls. Have fun; you have now stepped out on a very slippery slope...

 

[gwalker]

Tabs on the cast balls...take a sharp knife and trim those off. If left in place, they will cause your ball to fly off course. When loading a cast lead ball, always load it with the sprue facing up and centered at the muzzle. Centering it will help to stabilize the trajectory of the ball. Otherwise, the ball will not be balanced weight-wise. You could load the round ball by placing the ball at the muzzle with the sprue pointing down, but then how would you know if it is centered?

Some commercial lead balls are swaged (pressed into shape), which won't have a sprue. They can be loaded into the gun without any regard with what is up or down.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

OK well the original way to load your musket... was to tear open the cartridge, and pour some of the powder into the pan, then shut the pan.

Then pour the rest of the powder down the muzzle by inserting the open cartridge including the ball. The remaining powder will dump while you draw your rammer...then ram the ball and empty cartridge down hard on the powder.

The problem with that is you are ramming a round with a metal ramrod onto a powder charge WHILE the pan is closed and primed.

So while that's a good idea in actual combat...in real life not so much eh?

I'd suggest you tear and pour the entire load from the cartridge down the muzzle, then ram the cartridge and ball down. Finish by using a powder horn or priming horn, to prime AFTER you've loaded the barrel.

Blanks...
Blanks are normally used in firing demonstrations at living history events and battle formation. Because you don't use your rammer to avoid the habit of using a rammer even on a wad which might lead to your launching your rammer during a firing demo, or worse, a battle reenactment. SURE you're probably not ever planning on doing either, BUT don't form the habit anyway, OK :wink:

You use about 100 grains of 3Fg, and pour it down the barrel...no wad, nothing to ram. That will give you enough "pop" when you shoot to get the idea across. Yes your bore will foul, but it's not a problem. It will clean up with water. Prime the pan from a horn, replace the horn's plug, and shut the pan.

Now as for live firing of an actual musket ball...you use about 80 grains of 2Fg, because that will give you a lower pressure curve (no need to stress your barrel), and you will be ramming ball onto the powder charge, so you will get a big bang. 80 grains is plenty for target and for hunting.

You don't need patched ball, though some do use it.



LD

 

[Billnpatti]

According to an old manual of arms, this is the procedure. However, I have a safety problem with charging your pan before you load. If it were me, I'd not put powder into the pan until after you have seated your ball. While it does not follow the manual of arms, I would carry a separate horn or flask from which I would charge my pan. Anyway, this is how the drill went:

1. Bite off the tail of the cartridge.
2. Open the frizzen and pour in a bit of powder into the pan.
3. Close the pan
4. Pour the remainder of the powder down the bore.
5. insert the ball paper end first into the bore.
6. Seat the ball onto the powder.
7. Shoulder your arm
8. Cock your arm
9. Take aim
10. Fire

 

[Grenadier1758]

My musket balls also have little tabs on one side (where they came off the mold I have read), so do I file those off or are they alright to shoot if they go in with the tab facing the inside of the barrel or the muzzle?

The tab on one side of the ball is called the sprue. It is the opening in the mold where the molten lead is poured. You can trim the sprue off or leave it in place. Most of us will load with the sprue up so we can see it during loading. This way we can be reasonably sure that the ball is loaded the same way every time. You can also tumble the balls to smooth the sprue. In a smoothbore, not much gain in accuracy is accomplished by more work on the sprue. Use similar loading procedures when loading a paper cartridge. I like to dip the ball end in a mixture of melted 1 part bee's wax to 7 parts of olive oil.

You have been given a lot of information. Use the procedure that makes the most sense to you. Above all use the methods that emphasize safety in loading.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Unlike the muzzle loading rifle, there are many way to shoot a smoothbore. Also many will claim that their way is best.

The paper cartridge offers the advantage that most of the preparation is done ahead of time. You simply pour the pre-measured powder down the barrel, and then ram the paper tube and ball down. The paper tube crushes to form the wadding and HOLDS THE BALL AGAINST THE POWDER.

The Native Americas usually poured powder from their horn into some sort of measuring device, poured the powder down the barrel, stuffed in wadding made from grass, hair, cloth, tow, or a host of other things, dropped the ball down the barrel and followed it with a small amount of wadding rammed firmly to HOLD THE BALL AGAINST THE POWDER.

The fine English Gentleman might pour this powder from a metal flask into his sterling silver powder measure, dump it down the barrel, ram down a fine welt wad, drop down the ball then ram down a thin card wad on top to HOLD THE BALL AGAINST THE POWDER.

Many modern shooters, when loading from a shooting bench, forgo the horn and pour the powder from the can into an adjustable measure set to their favorite amount of powder, they pour the measure powder down the barrel, place a pre-cut patch or strip of cloth lubricated with spit of some other concoction on the barrel, they set the ball with the small circle known as the sprew facing up, then start the ball, usually with a short starter devise, flush or just below the end of the barrel. If they did not use a pre-cut patch they trim the cloth patch from the strip across the end of the barrel. They ram the patched ball down the barrel. The patch HOLDS THE BALL AGAINST THE POWDER.

These four or some variation/combination will be used by most smoothbore shooters. You can see the advantage of a premeasured paper cartridge.

Remember modern safety practices require.
Ӣ Never prime or cap the gun until you are in position and ready to shoot.
Ӣ Always measure the powder charge separate from the barrel. Some horns and flasks have built in measures but the powder still needs to be poured down the barrel from a separate measure.
Ӣ Always make sure the BALL IS SEATED AGAINST THE POWDER. Unlike smokeless powders in half empty metal cartridge cases and air gap in a muzzle loader can create serious pressure problems.

Good luck and enjoy

 

[StormTalon]

Thank you all VERY much for the responses, a lot of very good information!

As you all have emphasized, safety is my number one concern so I will make sure to go over those points you all have listed. Fortunately I did get a chance to shoot this musket a few times with my friend before he gave it to me, so I got some first hand experience enacting these precautions. I am glad that I was taught the things you all found fit to emphasize, it certainly puts me a little more at ease.

I think it is interesting that most of you have mentioned different methods for loading the cartridge (ball first vs empty powder side first) so I guess it all comes down to personal preference and which manual of arms at what date you are following. I am just glad no one suggested the one where you bite the cartridge so you carry the ball in your mouth, it always sounded too unsafe to be true (lead poisoning and all!) Thank you Grenadier 1758 for the lube suggestion when loading ball-first, I read that they lubricated them but I could never find a recipe that could be relatively accurate historically yet reasonably made with readily available modern materials.

Thank you George Walker for explaining the history of wadding/patches, now that you cleared that up with the historical context I think that is what they were talking about at the range. Your information was certainly very interesting and informative!

Thank you Grandpa Ron for the historical background and methods on holding the ball to the powder, I know that this step is important and couldn't forget it now! It is definitely nice to have all of those methods in one easy list.

I do have another quick question if I may: What is your go to place for muzzleloader supplies? There is only one place that has an extremely limited selection where I live (and has nothing for .69 caliber muskets), so I have been looking online. Are there any sites you recommend for getting balls, supplies, etc?

Anyway, thank you all very much for the advice, and I will let you know how my first range trip this weekend goes! :grin:

 

[azmntman]

Track of the wolf, The possible shop, cheaper than dirt, cabelas, bass pro....many many out there.

 

[StormTalon]

Thank you, that is a helpful list, though unfortunately none of them carry balls for a .69 caliber musket (except for Track of the Wolf, but they have rather large sprues). Does anyone know of a good site to get some? I know most people make them, but I do not really have the set up at home to do something like that. Thanks!

 

[azmntman]

Eddie Mays or something similar? He makes all sizes and sells cheap I hear.....Guys????

 

[tenngun]

Most cast balls of thet size will have a large one. When pouring you have to ballance the temp of your lead and mold. Too hot or too cold wont pour well, the hole needs to be large to let in the lead before it start to cool, so the bigger the ball the larger the spruce

 

[bud in pa]

It doesn't take much to set up for casting. Actually all that you need is a lead ladle, a mold, some lead, and a heat source. Lee Precision reloading products are fairly inexpensive, and of decent quality. I don't remember if they make molds in your caliber, but Jeff Tanner in the UK makes excellent molds of brass and in any size you want. I like paper cartridges for the speed of reloading when hunting. I also like the fact that I can get at least 15 shots before I get any fouling resistance. I use a .585 ball in my 20 ga. smooth bore. Saves on lead and is accurate enough for 50 yd. shots, and is deadly on deer. It's best to see what works best for your gun. :wink: :wink:

 

[54ball]

On Loading.
The instructor will command,
Load by word.
Open, PAN.
1. Make a half face to the right, place the right foot square and close behind the left heel, turn the
firelock, the lock to the front, seize ft with the right hand at the small, take the left hand from the bun.
2. Let fall the firelock the swell in the left hand, the butt under the right arm, the muzzle as high as
the eye, the guard a little outwards, the left elbow resting against the side, the thumb of the right hand
against the steel, the fingers clenched, the elbow pressing the bun against the body.
3. Open the pan by forcibly pushing the thumb against the steel, the left hand resisting, and keeping
the piece steady.
Handle, CARTRIDGE.
1. Bring the hand quick to the box, open it, take out the first cartridge felt, carry it quickly to the
mouth, bite the paper to the powder, bring the hand down as low as the shoulder, the elbow down.
PRIME.
1. Incline the head that the eye may see the pan, fill it with powder, close the cartridge, bring the
three last fingers behind the steel.
16
Shut, PAN.
1. Resist with the left hand, shut the pan strong with the three last fingers of the right.
2. Half face to the left, bring the right foot to the front, the heel against the hollow of the left, turn the
piece to the position of the second motion of the secure, nearly, the firelock four inches lower by
bearing strong on the butt with the right hand, and bringing the left hand to the left shoulder.
3. Quitting the firelock with the right hand, let it slide through the left, the butt falling lightly on the
ground near the left toe, and bring the right hand up to the muzzle, which is before the middle of the
breast, the piece touching the left thigh.
Charge, CARTRIDGE.
1. Cast the eye on the muzzle, turn up the right hand and elbow, put the cartridge into the barrel,
shake in the powder and force in the ball.
2. Turn the stock inwards, bring down the right elbow, and seize the butt of the rammer between the
thumb and fore finger of the right hand, the fingers closed.
Draw, RAMMER.
1. Draw the rammer by extending briskly the arm, the nails upward, quit and instantly seize it again
at the muzzle, the nails downward.
2. Draw it quite out, turn it between the face and the muzzle, and enter it into the muzzle as far as the
hand.
Ram, CARTRIDGE.
1. Extend the arm, seize again the rammer, and with two strokes force down the cartridge, draw the
rammer half out, seize it backhanded, draw turn and enter it as far as the tail pipe, placing the edge of
the hand, the palm downwards, on the butt of the rammer, the fingers extended.
Return, RAMMER.
1. Force the rammer home, raising the piece with the left hand to the shouldering position, placing
the right hand against the piece at the small, and bringing the right heel back beside the left.
Shoulder, ARMS.

Per US Army Smyth manual 1812....

How I use a cartridge box for hunting.....

For shot I will use blank catridges like I do for reenacting. My 1808 box holds 26 or so. I'll have my regular blanks in white paper and some shot cartridges made up in newspaper. In loading I pour my powder cartridge in then poke it down the muzzle, then I pour my shot cartridge on top of the wadded up powder cartridge. I then poke in the shot paper on top and ram it all down using the shot cartridge paper as the over shot wad.

You can ram it all separately or altogether, your preference and you can also use separate wads with this method as well.

I prime from my horn after loading.

Now you can, dump the shot and replace with a ball if need be.
To do that, dump your prime leave the steel or frizzen open, cock down....some use a frizzen stall as well as a vent feather. Put a worm on the rammer and pull the overshot wad, pour out the shot and make sure the powder is still seated. Replace the shot with a ball and over ball wad. Some use a PRB.

I prefer a wadding over a PRB.

For hunting with ball....

I use a tight ball with Spanish Moss wads. I use a .610 ball in a .617 bore. These are too tight to use with paper around them or a cloth patch. I load powder, moss wad, ball, moss wad. This load has proved as good or better than a PRB in my guns. Your results may vary. A looser .600 ball has done well too using this method.

It's easier to stick a ball in a smoothbore if the patch is tight, does not have enough lube or the barrel is fouled.
I find lubed natural fiber wads more forgiving in this respect than a PRB.
If ramming down a dry paper wrapped ball as in military fashion, the ball needs to be a good deal smaller than the bore as a tight ball wrapped in paper will stick especially in a fouled bore.

If a load sticks mid bore...sometime a little water will wet the patch,paper or wadding enough to let go down..... if you feel that the main charge has been contaminated.....you my be better pulling the ball. With a PRB this means drilling into the ball with a ball screw. With wads, if you are lucky sometimes you can pull the overball wad and pop the butt like you would do a ketchup bottle causing the ball to roll out the muzzle.

These guns can be very versatile and fun....there's about a zillion different ways to load and use them.

 

[Artificer]

On Loading.
The instructor will command,
Load by word.
Open, PAN.
1. Make a half face to the right, place the right foot square and close behind the left heel, turn the
firelock, the lock to the front, seize ft with the right hand at the small, take the left hand from the bun.

Gee, I thought the Corps was tough. This manual doesn't even let a guy finish his breakfast. :haha:

Gus