Newbie needs advice with first muzzle stuffer rifle

[jplomeo]

Hi Folks,
First of all I want to thank all who are sharing their knowledge on this forum. I joined up a little while ago and have been reading and soaking up as much info as possible. I got the black powder bug about 3 years ago, and have been enjoying shooting replica black powder revolvers. I own several Pietta, 1858 Remington 44 cal.replica revolvers, a Euro-Arms Rogers & Spencer (my favorite) and a Ruger ROA. I've also owned a Colt Walker and a Spiller & Burr and I just recently got a new Diablo 12 gauge, double barrel, shot gun pistol (I know its not historically correct but what a hoot!!).

Yesterday on GunBroker, I bought an Investarms, 50 Cal.rifle with a 23 " barrel, for $195 (already equipped with what appear to be Lyman rear and front peep sights-which these 67 year old eyes will certainly appreciate). I have read very good things about Investarms rifles on this forum, and, having been born in Italy, I am also a bit biased

Rifle is in the mail and I don't have it yet, so I don't know which model or serial it is yet.
Loading & caring for a muzzle loader rifle is apparently a bit different than revolvers. I am mostly going to be punching paper for fun, so I'm thinking probably will be shooting mostly round balls.

I am starting to stock up on some supplies, so my question is this: there seem to be two different sizes for 50 caliber:.490 & .495 round balls. Which thickness patch goes with which ball? Also, I am ordering a hickory bench ramrod: which thickness wood rod should I get for a 50 cal? I was thinking perhaps the 7/16 thickness would be stiffest and sturdiest or is that too big for a 50 caliber? I have plenty of different powders (Swiss, Old Einesford, Hogdon's 777, and even a couple bottles of Black MZ.) I much prefer the Swiss but there are only two places to get it here in AZ.

I will also need to get some ignition caps: which are the most reliable and which size for an Investarms? Also, is there anybody who makes a conversion nipple to be able to use 209 primers for the Investarms side lock? and lastly, is there is an owner's manual available on line for these rifles?

Any information or advice is much appreciated
Thanks you very much &
Keep yer powder dry!
JP

 

[bubba.50]

With the 23in barrel is the stock checkered? If it is you likely have the Hawken Hunter. If so, it is fast-twist and likely won’t do well with roundballs. You may do better with conicals such as maxi-balls or Hornady Plains bullets.

If the stock is smooth and it has a single trigger it would be The Deerstalker which is 1 in 48 inch twist and can shoot roundballs well if you do your part in working up what load it likes.

 

[Sinner]

There's no need to switch to 209 primers; no. 11 percussion caps are very capable of igniting your powder charge. I've used CCI for years with no issues. As bubba said, you'll need to verify the rate of twist to know if it'll shoot patched balls okay. As long as it is 1:48 or higher (slower twist) you should have no problems.
You'll need to try different patch thickness with both diameter balls, if appropriate rate of twist, to see what loads well and shoots well.
I'd recommend a delrin rod for a range/bench rod. It won't break. 3/8" or 7/16" will work.
You'll most likely be happiest with the swiss powder, although I know some like the 777 okay. I prefer the real stuff.

 

[Bearkiller]

Hey JP welcome to the forum! Hell of a deal on that rifle. I found this page http://www.investarm.com/media/pdf/manuale_avancarica_uk

 

[Stony Broke]

Bearkiller...it's good to see you up and participating in the muzzleloading fun. Don't run yourself to death on those exercise machines !

 

[ASMman]

Hello JP,

Investarms make a good product, you'll have fun.

As far as changing it to a 209 Primer, yes it can be done but it's not going to be a simple screw in project. I did switch my Lyman Great Plains Hunter (Manufactured by Investarms) over with a Mag-Spark kit, but the 1/2 **** position would rest on the firing pin. I milled about .150" off the hammer, and purchased a replacement for caps so I can switch back & forth. Also, I was gifted a jar full of primers, some needed to be pressed into the Mag-Spark, so I built a sizing die to size the primers but not sure what will happen after firing. I've read reports of primers sticking in the Mag-Spark, with the socket drive under the primer they might be tough to remove with a primer stuck in it.
(I hope this post is legal)

Also, if it is a fast twist rifle send me a Private Message.

AntiqueSledMan.

 

[Grenadier1758]

There is no need to switch to a 209 primer. In a traditional firearm, you will be shooting perfectly well with a #11 cap. If you can only find substitute powders in your area, then use a #11 magnum cap and nipple designed to get a lot of heat to the powder, such as a Hot Shot or Spitfire nipple.

 

[Erwan]

so my question is this: there seem to be two different sizes for 50 caliber:.490 & .495 round balls. Which thickness patch goes with which ball?

The best in this case is to know the caliber of the barrel bore an grooves (forced bullet and caliper or micrometer), than you can calculate easily the approach of the thickness of the patch in rapport with the choice of .490 or .495 bullets...
If you never did you can get the method approached by Lyman here : https://www.lymanproducts.com/media/catalog/product/t/r/trade_rifle_p1.pdf ...
After that the work is almost finished and you just have to make some adjustements...

 

[ASMman]

Hello Grenadier1758,

JP asked so I told him what I discovered.
Also, at the time I did the conversion #11 caps were nowhere to be had.
So it's just an alternative ignition system.

AntiqueSledMan.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Caps were hard to come by a few years ago. I had plenty on hand to wait out the shortage, It especially helped that I started using my flintlocks a lot more.

 

[bang]

When you get it measure the bore.
As far as patches it's typical to choose a thickness that will not start with thumb pressure but will with a moderate non brusing palm strike to the starter. The idea is to have enough compression against the bore that will leave an impression of the fabric on the ball.

It's said that shallow riflings don't need as thick a patch as deep riflings. A matter of insuring complete gas seal.

Lots of bp substitutes to choose from. I use Pyrodex "P" and have for 20+ years with good results. The RS had a minor issue of the occasional hesitation ignition but after I switched to P, equivalent to fff, it stopped. Some just absolutely do not like Pyrodex and say it's too corrosive. Well you should treat all of them as corrosive and thoroughly clean asap. I wet swab at the range before I leave. It gets the heavy stuff out before it dries hard.
Soapy water works well. I use a small container with a hose on the nipple and a tight patch to draw and push the solution. It gets the barrel, flash channel and nipple cleaned out. Still pull the nipple and run a pipe cleaner through the channel to get the moisture out. Alcohol will displace the moisture too.

If the bore is tighter than 1:48 a ball won't shoot good at powder loads used in slower twists. Where 70gns might work good in 1:48 you might get decent with 40-50, or less, in tighter. The problem is the friction to spin the patched ball gets too high and the charge pressure can cause the patched ball to skip over the riflings. Even with the thinnest patch the soft lead used can't hold up. You'll just have to work up the load which will typically be different for each projectiles shape and weight.

 

[Bearkiller]

Bearkiller...it's good to see you up and participating in the muzzleloading fun. Don't run yourself to death on those exercise machines !

I just figured out who you are! Only took me 6 years to do it....

 

[yonderin]

Welcome. Two pieces of advice. Hang around here, listening and asking. And have fun.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Also, at the time I did the conversion #11 caps were nowhere to be had.
So it's just an alternative ignition system.

Right so if it becomes a situation with the new to you rifle that you need an alternative...,

Cabela's sells the Pedersoli 209 adapter https://www.cabelas.com/product/Davide-Pedersoli-Primer-Nipple-Conversion-Kit/1608590.uts

And there is also the Mag Spark 209 adapter, which you can find on eBay.


LD

 

[MSW]

as regards the switch to shotgun primers, I would avoid it if at all possible. I don't feel that it is necessary, so why stand the additional expense and trouble? Normal percussion caps will ignite your powder just fine without all the attendant falderal of 209s - I have only had one cap failure in nearly forty five years of shooting, and it might well have been a alignment problem between the hammer and the nipple … I would posit that the rate of cap percussion cap failures is the same (or so close as to make do difference) as the failure rate of 209s.

I would urge you to invest in the Dutch Schoultz method (he asks me not to call it a treatise, but I think it is). This is, to my mind, the best accessory you can get: certainly the best 'bang for the buck' (sorry- couldn't avoid the pun) …

here's a link:

http://blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

again, a tremendous way to tighten your groups and improve your scores. Mr. Schoultz' credentials are, literally, world class. He is a very friendly, very down- to- earth sort of fellow and if you e- mail him a question, he will give you an answer (and the reasoning behind it) right away, and he'll do it for free.

As regards shooting 'substitute' black powder, I can only say that as a flintlock shooter, I don't use it much, except in cap & ball revolvers and that's just to use it up. If that's all you can get, and it works for you, by all means go with it. The arguments that it's more corrosive or whatever are really moot in my opinion: you should clean any muzzle loading weapon as soon as you can after firing anyway, so it doesn't really matter how you got it dirty, so long as you get it clean.

If it comes to pass that you need an "odd" size roundball (that is, one which is not commonly available on the commercial market) you may end up casting your own. "Running ball" is not only a great way to wring every bit of accuracy out of your rifle, but it's kinda fun, too. Depending on where and how you shoot, you can recover your own lead, use range lead, or scrounge soft lead from many different sources (although it's becoming more difficult to do so). At worst case, you can buy the stuff from a scrap dealer or RoboMetals, but this is expensive. A hardness tester might be useful, but I never had the urge (or spare cash) to buy one - if I can dent the lead sample with my thumbnail, I think it's soft enough to use for muzzle loading. Buy a good micrometer instead (Mr. Schoultz' paper will explain this).

Lube is very important to the tuning... there are as many lube recipes as there are shooters, and each one is perfect, and a deep dark secret, only to be shared with the closest friends. I use a Ballistol version, but there are a myriad of ones which do work...

you mentioned a ram rod … I use this at the range:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/834/1
the Durango style is better- the handle will turn as you run the rod down the bore. The guide keeps the rod from rubbing against the bore at the crown, and the only real 'trick' is to make sure that all of your accessories (jag, patch holders and so on) are the same thread … I would recommend the 44 inch rod with a 10x32 thread, then buy all the accessories and tip you need right then and there and be done with it. The cleaning jag will eventually wear out, but the other tip will last a few lifetimes if properly cared for.

sorry to run ling... good luck, and

Make Good Smoke!

 

[jplomeo]

Gentlemen, I am most grateful for all the information you have given me. Thanks to all your input, I now have a plan on what to do, how to do it, where to go to buy what I need and a several more very useful links and additional sources of knowledge. This will keep me busy for a while
Here is a link to my rifle, It should be here tomorrow.It has minor scratches on the stock which I can very easily sand and refinish;
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/843945787

BTW, I did not pay $50 to ship it- I contacted the seller about that before end of auction and he reduced it to $35, which is more reasonable.

I'll likely have a couple of more questions in the future but you guys are a fantastic bunch and an immense source- Thank you again!!
JP

 

[brewer12345]

A very nice first rifle. You will have fun with it.

 

[jplomeo]

Thanks Brewer, I think I will
JP

 

[ASMman]

Hello JP,

Looks like it will be fun, I see in the pictures it was made in 1981 (AH).
I'm not sure if the clean-out screw will come out or not, if you try, make sure you have a good fitting screw driver or it will just bugger-up on you. Both of my Lymans need to have the clean-out screw removed before removing the nipple (that's not easy to remember).
Also, $195 is probably close to what it sold for new, I paid $210 for my TC Hawkin in 1978.

Looking forward to a range report, AntiqueSledMan.

 

[hanshi]

That's a very nice rifle and a good one for any shooting/hunting you might do. I like CCI caps and black powder. If you use substitute powders you may want to upgrade to CCI magnum caps.