Newbie question

[dave63]

After posting for advise in another area here, I bought a CVA Bobcat for my son and I to see if we liked BP shooting. Thanks for the suggestions.

I have read over and over that you have to experiment with loads and leads to get the best results. SO I went to Gander Mountain and spent approximately four times the cost of the rifle in accesories and supplies . I got some of just about every type of projectile that is recommended for a .50 cal muzzleloader. After I got home and was putting things away, I see that one box of Hornady conicals says " .512 for 1/60" twist". I want to make sure I don't build a bomb and set it off in my face on the first time out with my kids watching. The Bobcat has a 1/48 twist.

I feel like this will be safe, but want to hear from somebody that's done this more than once. Math is not my thing, but to me it looks like a .490 ball and a .018 patch works out to .526, so the PRB would actually take up more space in the barrel than the Hornady Mini-ball type at .512. I do understand the conical will expand in the skirt area when fired.

So what do ya say guys. Should I keep and use 'em, or take them back. They were like $10 for 50, so it's not a huge loss if it's not a good idea.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

P.S.....great place you've got here eace:

 

[Rebel]

Dave, welcome to the sport My advice would be to save yourself a lot of money and take back all the conicals, and stick to rd. balls. Not only are they a lot cheaper to buy, as you have found, but they are capable of taking deer and other game cleanly with PROPER shot placement. That being said, what weight are the Hornady conicals in question? There is no hard and fast rule that a conical will not shoot out of just one twist rate. If they say they are for a 1-60" twist, that doesn't necessarily mean they won't work fine in your 1-48" twist. As long as they load with a little resistance, so they stay on the powder charge, they should work ok. That is another plus of the patched rd. ball, you don;t need to worry about it moving off the charge once properly seated. Try a load of about 65-75 grs of 2f powder to start, or an equivalent VOLUME of Pyrodex RS. Good luck and good shooting. Have fun.

 

[gordy]

Dave:I have to agree with Rebel,at least start out with round ball loads untill You build a little confidence in loading proceedure.The .512 should be fine as the faster twist 1:48 of the Bobcat will stabilize the conical better then the 1:60.Like rebel, I shoot mostly round ball so can't advise as to the best conical loads.There are several here that have much experience with conicals.I bought a Bobcat for one Grandson last year and it performs very well with round ball,others have very good results with conicals.The 1:48 twist is a middle of the road twist that works well on conicals or round ball.The Bobcat is a great starter gun for anyone as the 24" bbl.makes loading easy compared to some of the long guns.Good luck to You and Your Son,and keep us posted on Your progress. :thumbsup: ::

 

[vradin]

I can't address your math question nor the use of conicals since I only shoot PRB, but on a different level
:imo: Bring most of the accessories back if you can. :m2c:

Since you're just going to "see if you like it" maybe best to start frugal- look for the starter kit from either CVA or TC. It will have a flask, starter, measure, and small bag to keep it in. Might even come with pre-lubed patch and a box of roundball too. Then get a couple of tins of caps, some powder, and if needed patch and balls. A few cleaning supplies if you absolutely have to give your money away, but hot water and dish detergent work fine and the kid's old skivvies can be cut up for cleaning patches.

When I'm teaching or doing demos of ML at Scout camp pretty much all we use for a day's shooting are the CVA bobcats, flask, measure, starter, patches, balls, and a tin of caps. The only other tools that are mandatory might be a good nipple pick and maybe a capper, but I almost never use one (unless I have to cap in the dark during campfires and such).

Most everything else is "extra" that you can likely do without until you decide that shooting smokepoles is cool and fun and addictive, and then slowly add to your collection of stuff.

As I tell the ones who try it at camp and get addicted there- You should be able to get started for under $150, including the rifle.

<edited to add> just an afterthought, but I routinely get 1" groups with the Bobcat and PRB at 50 feet, and the first-timers at camp almost always "get meat".

Good luck,
Vic

 

[Stumpkiller]

SO I went to Gander Mountain and spent approximately four times the cost of the rifle in accesories and supplies.

Dave, the following is ment in good humor and not a slap at you, but I hope it conveys a point . . .


You should have stopped here first and we'd have kept some of that money in your pocket and not in those of the ad men and retailers.

Shootin conicals in a muzzleloader is like pittin ground-effect aprons and a rear spoiler on a John Deer tractor. You're missin the point and spending lots with little return. If you want to shoot conicals get a nice Marlin .45-70 lever action and you'll be far ahead. If you want simplicity and a good sporting challenge stick to round lead balls.

Do you think some guy on Madison Avenue or a gun shop owner is going to tell you:

"This gun shoots well with little round balls you can cast yourself for pennies wrapped in cloth , and you can get a year's worth for a couple bucks at a fabric store (lubed with anything from your own saliva to cooking oil). See you next year when you come in to buy a couple tins of caps."

Nope, he's going to say:

"Whatcha need is a couple boxes of Thumblicker 4500 Bad Adder lazer guided saboted bullets and this here MegaDoDo target designator GPS tracking helmet with DVD player and heat massage. Don't worry about the $12,700, we got a frequent buyer perks store card and layaway plan. Hey, did you see my new BMW in the parking lot? Don't forget to come back next week when the Thmblicker 4599's are coming out, all the old Thumblicker 4500 conicals will be obsolete from then on."

We're here because we LIKE shooting things that have been obsolete since before the Civil War! I cast my lead balls from old scrap lead I get for free (well, a couple six-packs) at a junkyard. Makes me feel like I'm beating "the system." Well, everybody but the electric company I guess.

It's good you're supporting the sporting goods store and hunting magazine advertisers by buying all that hyped up stuff. Somebody has to.

 

[dave63]

SO I went to Gander Mountain and spent approximately four times the cost of the rifle in accesories and supplies.

Dave, the following is ment in good humor and not a slap at you, but I hope it conveys a point . . .

No slap taken. That was a hillarious post. I can laugh at myself, and it won't be the first time that I have spent way more than I needed to to get started at something.

I may have exagerated a bit on what I spent. I didn't buy anything that was $15 for 15 or 20 rounds, I can tell you that. I think the most expensive thing I got was 1 package of Cheap Shot sabots. I did buy 150 of the Traditions round balls. I really did like the price of those. And was planning to shoot more RB's than anything else. Just wanted to see what did the best in the gun. I think I have enough to do that.

Thanks for all of the replies. My main concern was the .512 diameter of the Hornady, but that doesn't seem to concern anybody else much, so I'll let you know what happens when we get to go out in the next couple of days.

Dave

 

[Stumpkiller]

Rule of thumb with rifled muzzleloaders: If you can get a projectile IN all the way, the powder can get that projectile OUT.

I fully understand. I enjoy fly fishing and tie my own flies. There is no group of humans who will spend as much for so little, and often on things unnecessary and never to be used, as fly tyers. I need two pheasant tail feathers - I come home with $100 worth of duck, quail, bustard and toucan feathers . . . and have to make a special trip back to get the two pheasant feathers I forgot to buy. What's worse, when I do get out fishing I usually use one of three patterns - none of which require any of the above stuff.

Probably everyone here went through the "Candy Store" stage. Us old sooty codgers are just helping you avoid the worst of the blunders we all made ourselves. Experience is a good teacher, but the tuition can be high and the classes long.

 

Yep bought all the fancy doodads at one time now IMO if you cant make it yourself you just don

 

[grlmpl]

Dave My gander mountain in fort wayne has MLC.490 roundball 100 per box for $4.95, from bullet weights, inc

grlmpl

 

[vanstg]

Dave,
The Gander Mtn store in Indy also carries .490 MLC round balls (look for some brown boxes on the bottom shelf).
And there's a JoAnn Fabrics store conveniently located next door to Gander Mtn, if you want to get some pillow ticking and cut your own patches.
Those Hornady conicals you mentioned, are what they call "PA Conical". They are just a short conical bullet. Weight should be 240gr or something close to that. Shooting them in your Bobcat should be no problem.
Vanstg

 

[tx50cal]

Well the first thing that I can recommend is to get your hands on every muzzleloading catalog and start looking at the rifles. After your first couple of shots that will be it, you will be hooked for[url] life.In[/url] a few years you will aquire a couple of other rifles.Muzzleloading is addictive and you WILL love it, and once you get the hang of it and get your loads worked out it is great. I think that its great that your going to get your son involved with muzzleloading, we all need to bring kids into it to keep it going.We don't need to let this great stuff die with this generation. Good luck and good shooting. :RO: :redthumb:

 

My sister in law bought me one of those. I was a bit suspect at first. But a trip to the range and ten shots later I decided that "Bob" could accompany me on my hunting trips. I tend to shoot mainly PRB, and with BOB I use .490 round ball and patch it with pillow ticking from Walmart that I prewash and grease with T/C Bore Butter. I use an 80 grain charge and it marks paper quite nicely. I say tradem in. :m2c:

After posting for advise in another area here, I bought a CVA Bobcat for my son and I to see if we liked BP shooting. Thanks for the suggestions.

I have read over and over that you have to experiment with loads and leads to get the best results. SO I went to Gander Mountain and spent approximately four times the cost of the rifle in accesories and supplies . I got some of just about every type of projectile that is recommended for a .50 cal muzzleloader. After I got home and was putting things away, I see that one box of Hornady conicals says " .512 for 1/60" twist". I want to make sure I don't build a bomb and set it off in my face on the first time out with my kids watching. The Bobcat has a 1/48 twist.

I feel like this will be safe, but want to hear from somebody that's done this more than once. Math is not my thing, but to me it looks like a .490 ball and a .018 patch works out to .526, so the PRB would actually take up more space in the barrel than the Hornady Mini-ball type at .512. I do understand the conical will expand in the skirt area when fired.

So what do ya say guys. Should I keep and use 'em, or take them back. They were like $10 for 50, so it's not a huge loss if it's not a good idea.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

P.S.....great place you've got here eace:

 

[Zonie]

Dave: I'm not sure if someone answered your question about the .490 round ball and the .018 thick patches.

Assuming they didn't, you are correct, .490+.018+.018 = .526. The bore in your gun is .500, and I'm guessing the grooves are about .008 deep. That adds up to .516, so how does the patched ball fit?
Tight. ::

What is not real obvious is the cotton patching will compress way down in the bore, and not so much in the grooves.
Also, the ball is only touching on it's edge so there is little lead at the point of contact. The lead is easily? deformed in the areas where the patch doesn't want to compress.
That's why we use pure lead (when we can get it) in muzzleloaders. Harder alloys become VERY difficult to load with a tight patch/ball combination.

I'm not familure with your .512 dia bullets. I hope that is the diameter of the plastic sabot and not the actual slug size because if it is the slug size, you will never be able to get it down the bore. Not even with a BIG hammer.

At the risk of irritating someone, I'll say the advantage of the bullet is it retains its energy and velocity better than the round ball. This puts more energy "WAY OUT THAR".

The disadvantage of the bullet is, as you found, it COSTS MORE. It is always heavier than a round ball so it also KICKS MORE.

This leaves us with the question, what do you want to do with this rifle?
For target shooting and hunting anything smaller that a BIG Elk out to 100 yards, the round ball .50 will do just fine.

For BIG things like BIG ELK and MOOSE, the bullet would be better.

Have Fun!

 

[Rat]

I agree with Zoni, and I would add that the bullet might be better for the BIG stuff, if you are shooting over 100 yards, which you really "shouldn't" be, with a ML. Or perhaps with a .50 we might say around 80 yards. (or maybe not...no offense fifty-guys) The bullet/slug/minnie/conical shines at long range...otherwise the ball has a little bit of velocity and expansion on it's side at normal ranges.

A stoutly loaded .50" round ball, placed in the boiler room, should drop Mr.Elk no problem. From everything I've heard, Moose are a bit more easy to kill than Elk, so that takes care of Mr.MOOSE too!!!

I'm not against slug-guns...I have two minnie rifles and really enjoy them. But all things considered I prefer round ball rifles for hunting.

Rat

 

[dave63]

Thanks for all the help guys. I appreciate it. We're going tomorrow to try it out. I'll let you know what happens.

I did have a bit of a scare tonight. I went to clean the thing for the first time, and evidently, used the wrong tip on the rod. Never occured to me that they would be different sizes. I pushed the rod and cleaning patch to the bottom, and couldn't pull it back out to save my life. Tried Rem Oil, tried the air comprssor in the nipple hole, nothing would move it. As a last resort, I made a slide hammer screwed into the rod, and got it out. I was thinking about how embarrasing it was going to be to take a $54 gun to a smith to get it out. Truth be known, I would have went to Walmart and bought another one and never said a word to anybody. ::

Will post results tomorrow night.

Dave