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410-er

50 Cal.
Joined
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New to this shotgun stuff.Should I be lubing my wad that goes over the card?
4061449690_790df26d93.jpg

Other question was about the shot.I was rolling newspaper 3 X around a piece of 1/2"PVC pipe to make shot cups.Took a shot at a piece of wet drywall and got a nice group with 7 1/2 at about 20-25yds.Did notice that there was a 1/2" hole close to center.Looking on the other side I saw newspaper.Should I stick with the newspaper or go with loose shot?Mostly hunting pheasants and rabbits.
I also hunt with both barrels capped.With both at half **** I loose the 2nd cap when 1st barrel is fired.Tried squeezing with fingers and needle nose.Still hops off.Should I be shooting this double as a single and just prime the 2nd after the 1st is fired?Using #11 Remington primmers.
 
Hi!

The fiber wad is generally lubed.

I prime both barrels, and leave the hammers down (have not yet had a tumble the set off a barrel). I **** the barrel I'll shoot as the gun comes to the shoulder, and then worry about cocking the second. It works for me, and others.
 
410-er said:
New to this shotgun stuff.Should I be lubing my wad that goes over the card?
4061449690_790df26d93.jpg

Other question was about the shot.I was rolling newspaper 3 X around a piece of 1/2"PVC pipe to make shot cups.Took a shot at a piece of wet drywall and got a nice group with 7 1/2 at about 20-25yds.Did notice that there was a 1/2" hole close to center.Looking on the other side I saw newspaper.Should I stick with the newspaper or go with loose shot?Mostly hunting pheasants and rabbits.
I also hunt with both barrels capped.With both at half **** I loose the 2nd cap when 1st barrel is fired.Tried squeezing with fingers and needle nose.Still hops off.Should I be shooting this double as a single and just prime the 2nd after the 1st is fired?Using #11 Remington primmers.


I'm surprised your not shooting "slugs" with the shot wrapped up like that. I would ditch the wad in between the powder and the fiber wad, also ditch the top piece of fiber wad that your using to hold it all in.

I would take a Fiber Wad "C" and cut it in half like it appears you do and place this over your powder, then shot and hold it all in with a couple of Wad "B"s. You want lightly lubed wads so they aren't to heavy.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(0...s/tableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=37&styleID=118
 
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Lots depends on what your gun likes, but I always lubed the base fiber wad, then loaded shot, then a plain card over the top. With small shot at closer range that fiber wad can blow through the pattern, but I never found it to be a problem with #6 and larger shot. Just split the fiber wad in half for the base when using smaller shot.

Never tried the newspaper, so I don't know what's going on there. I'm surprised it has stayed with the load, much less poked through your backstop unless the fiber wad is hanging with it, and that's what's actually doing the poking.
 
If you shoot enough of those Packets of shot, you will get a slug- a packet that won't open within 25 yds. The other hole is being created by one or more of those thick wads.

MY suggestion: Buy some over Shot Cards, which are .010" thick. ( made from the same cardboard from which shirt backs are made.) They have a smooth, slick, surface on both sides.

I would load your gun as follows:

Use the OP wad- that thick, grey wad you are now using-- but if you intend to use that thicker brown wad, then lube the outer edge of it, to help soften your fouling. I like to put a OS card down on top of this softer, " cushion " wad, in order to keep small shot from imbedding in the softer wad. Keep the Brown wad thin by cutting the cushion wad in 1/2 or 1/3s. That lightens the weight and keeps it from following the shot column when it leaves the muzzle. Don't soak the cushion( brown ) wad in oil or a water based oil/cleaning solution, as that makes the wad way too heavy, and it will follow the shot column.

Then put the shot load in the barrel. I would tear off the front of that paper cartridge in actual use, even with the muzzle, so that the shot will separate from the paper cup easily. Then put a OS card( or 2) on top of the shot load.

I also grease the bore after seating( or while seating) the OS card on the shot, by greasing up a cleaning patch, and running it down the barrel. It protects the bore from rusting on rainy hunts, and allows the shot- and shotcup here-- to slide down and out the barrel faster. The remaining lube softens the fouling that comes behind.

The reason for using these wads is to: 1. Provide a good gas seal between the powder and shot; 2. To provide a firewall to protect the shot from being cut, or disrupted by gases; 3, to provide a flat slick surface to push the entire column of shot out the barrel evenly, so you get good shot separation at the muzzle, and 4. To hold the shot column in the barrel(s).

You can accomplish all these things simply using the same loading procedure, but using OS cards ONLY. The OS cards should have an off-center hole poked into them with an awl, or nail, to let air pass through the hole, and protect the all-important edges of the cards. Simply align the cards, in use, so that no two adjoining cards have the holes lined up with one another.

A BP shotgun is a 25-30 yard gun for killing birds, unless the barrel is choked. You extend killing distance by using larger shot sizes, and a higher volume of shot to keep the number of pellets in a pattern close to what you get using smaller size shot.

You reduce the powder charge when loading MORE shot, in order to keep the pattern tight, when you don't have choke in the barrel to help. Larger shot sizes weigh more, and carry pellet energy further, than smaller shot.

For instance, with my modern 12 gauge shotgun, with its choked barrel, I am quite happy to shoot 1 1/8 oz of #6 shot for pheasant hunting. But, with my 12 ga. MLer, without choke, I use #5 shot and load 1 1/4 oz of it. I have killed pheasants at a paced off 33 yards with this load.

The purpose of a " cushion " wad is to do just that: to cushion the shot when the powder charge is first ignited. The lead pellets are soft, and want to remain in place. The Back couple of rows of pellets are being pushed harder on ignition while the remaining pellets in front of these rows still want to remain in place. That causes the back row pellets to be made square, and they lose their Ability to fly through air as well as a round pellet does. This results in these back rows of shot dropping out of the load and pattern in the first 20 yds.( Try shooting a load of shot through paper at 10 yds, and you will see the pelles as they are falling out of the main pattern.)

The Cushion wad tends to reduce this damage, giving you more shot in your patterns.

Choice of powder also will help- often more than using any cushion wad. For instance, a shotgun can easily ignite 1Fg powder, or 2Fg powder. A lot of shooters like using FFFg powder in their shotguns, because of the sharper "crack " they hear at the muzzle when the gun is fired. There is NO DOUBT that FFFg powder burns faster, and gives faster velocities to your shot column. But, that extra velocity comes at a price of MORE bottom row pellets being distorted, and your pattern spreading faster in the air.

This is great for Skeet shooting, but not very good for shooting Trap, or hunting most flushing birds. Pass-shooting birds, like waterfowl, and dove, can be taken with both kinds of loads, and powders, provided that you recognize the limitations and wait for the birds to come in close. :hmm: :thumbsup:

I met a man at Friendship who was shooting a big 10 gauge shotgun at the trap range. His loads were 1 1/2 oz, or more, of shot. He was using Fg powder, because it smacked the shot less on ignition while all that shot was being moved out of his barrel. He got much better patterns using Fg powder than if he used FFg, much less FFFg powder.

If you are shooting small bore shotguns, on up to about 20 gauge, choice of powder is not going to make much difference, considering the small amount of shot normally shot in these guns, and gauges. However, when you get up to shooting more than 1 ounce of shot in a load, its something to consider and test. Its the total weight of the column of shot sitting in the barrel that provides the inertia and force that distorts the back rows of shot when fired. Reduce the total weight of the shot charge, and there is less distortion of shot. :hmm: :thumbsup:
 
You are mileage may vary, but I never had any consistant luck with using a paper shot cup. It is much easier for me to use a flask or snake (again your preference of type and your preference of style. I prefer the flask with an English head) and just adjust it to the amount of shot you want to shoot. I do use a fiber cushion, but it is cut to about 1/4" thick and lubed/soaked with olive oil and allowed to drain all the extra lube off. I have had excellent luck with the standard, one over powder card and one over shot card.


As far as the caps falling off, you may want to try a change in cap brands or nipple brands to find a combo that gives you a good snug fit. Usually pinching the cap before putting it on does the trick, but it isn't for you. I have also noticed that if you are an archer, that a nock crimping tool makes a good tool to use to tighten the cap by crimping them alittle. Just discovered that trick this past month as I was playing with my bows.
 
I've used newspaper shot cartridges for over fourty years with no over shot card. I use a two thickness cartridge tyed with kite string and have not noticed either "slug effect" or "center doughnut". But then each gun has its preference.I cap both barrels and **** only one at a time. The right barrel (front trigger ) as I pull up. he left barrel after firing the first if desired. I always uncap the left if reloading the right before firing the left.
 
"...always uncap the left if reloading the right before firing the left."[/quote]
Excellent advise!! :thumbsup:

Has anyone tried using plastic shot cups? Not very PC or HC but I've been able to get some very tight patterns out to 30 yards with turkey loads.

John
 
I have tried plastic cups, but found they did not seal well, so you have to use an OP Wad on top of the powder with the Plastic shotcup. Also, You need to grease the bore using a greased cleaning patch as you load the plastic cup( with an OS Card) or after you load the os card on top of the shot, to prevent plastic being rubbed off on the bore walls. Greasing does work to eliminate the plastic build up, common in modern cartridge shotguns. The plastic cups do protect the out shot pellets from rubbing against the bore walls, leaving lead, and creating flat spots that slow the shot, drop it out of the pattern, and send it wide of the line of fire, opening the pattern at close ranges( out to 50 feet).

Comparing plastic cups to paper or index card stock cups, both protect the bore from leading, and can prevent the shot from being flattened on the outsides of the column.

If you really want to protect the shot from being deformed, then you need a shot buffer poured into the cup with the shot, such as Corn Bread MIX by Jiffy. This is a very fine corn meal POWDER- much finer than Corn MEAL. The fine powder easily fills in the spaces between pellets and protects the pellets from being deformed. :thumbsup:
 
When I use plastic shot cups the first thing I do is cut off the cushion base and use a felt cushion wad. Doing so gives the required gas seal while protecting the shot load. In the case of my priciple fowler I use 80gr FFF with a 20 gauge felt wad. Then comes the altered plastic cup and 1-1/8 oz of shot followed by a thin card over shot wad. This will provide me with fairly dense patterns out to 30 yards. If one wanted to improve pattern density more a single strip of Scotch tape around the base of the cup's wings will hold the pattern together up to 40 yards though I am certain you would loose some velocity at such a range. I certainly wouldn't profess to understand the physics involved but it does seem to work for me. Now as to your suggestion of lubing the bore with loading... I may just try that.

Sincerly,

John
 
Snow on the Roof said:
Has anyone tried using plastic shot cups? Not very PC or HC but I've been able to get some very tight patterns out to 30 yards with turkey loads.

John


I used them on and off for close to 20 years, starting back in the 1970's and ending when they finally made us switch to steel shot up here. Can't find it right now, but there was an article about it back then, in one of the annuals like Gun Digest if I recall correctly.

The article recommended WWAA12Red wads, and though I tried others those seemed to work best. The petals were a little thicker and stiffer. Inherent in the "system" was trimming the base as you suggest, along with trimming the petals to achieve different patterns. Full length petals gave a nice Modified choke and half petals gave a nice IC pattern. Never tried the tape, but it sounds like you might be edging into IM or F territory with that.

I had zero, no, nada, zip plastic fouling with the WWAA12Red wads, but didn't shoot the others enough to know.

Biggest factor I found for longer range shooting on waterfowl was a crossover between velocity and shot size. Patterns were best down in the 1000-1100fps range, rather than as fast as you could blast the shot out the bore. But at those lower velocities, you needed to use larger shot on waterfowl if you wanted to reach much past 30 yards. And of course, that thinned the pattern out there. Me? I just moved the decoys closer and went on about my business.

The whole velocity thingy is what kept me from adapting to steel shot. In modern guns I learned you really had to get the velocity of steel up, along with increasing shots size, for good performance. I just didn't see where I could get the kinds of velocities needed with a muzzleloader.

Along came bismuth, but I'd already traded off the gun by then (a Navy Arms double 12). With the newer subs available today, I'm tempted to get back into waterfowl with a ML. Of course, I also miss all the snowshoe hare and ptarmigan hunting I did with that old 12, and that can be done with lead.

Stay tuned.
 
If I lube the wad at the base of the shot it could punch thru the shot giving me a dounut pattern?
What if I lube the over the shot wad?
 
I shoot skeet with my 20 guage, and have used a couple of different plastic wads. I can shoot two rounds 3/4 8.5 shot, 65 gr ffg, then take the gun home and clean it. There is some plastic then but its not a problem.

With the 12 gauge it wants to be swabbed twice a round.

I shoot with regular cartridge shooters so I needed a simple system that doesn't wreck their game. This worked for me.

At a muzzleloader shoot I would use over shot cards, or maybe oxyoke felt.
 
The problem with soaking a thick cushion wad with oil, or water based compounds, is that it increases the weight of that already substantial piece of wadding. That allows it to fly behind the shot column in the air, and actually move faster because of the vacuum behind the shot column for the first 9 feet in front of the barrel. That is how the heavy wad "bumps " the shot column and causes donut hole patterns.

If you watch stock car races, you will see drivers moving into that same vacuumbehind a car in front of them, with their cars, to obtain extra speed which they use on a turn to send them lower( shorter distance to travel around a curve) and allows them to Pass the car that was providing the " drag" for them minutes earlier.

That is the same principle that allows wads to move faster than heavier lead shot for those first few yards in front off the muzzle, before the pellets begin to separate, and the vacuum disappears. Those close pellets create a vacuum behind them for that short distance in front of the muzzle. ( The reason modern plastic wads have spit ' petals " on them is so that the petals will open up IMMEDIATELY on hitting the air at the muzzle, and become an "air brake" to separate the shot from the plastic wad/cup behind it. Even with this air brake system, plastic wads typically travel 20 yards in front of the barrel.)

The secret is to lighten the cushion wad, or whatever other wad you put behind the shot, by reducing its length. THEN, only lube the outside edge of the wad, rather than soaking the entire wad in oil, water based solvents, etc. That practice will keep the wad light enough that it will fall down away from the shot column, when it leaves the muzzle, and NOT be able to travel with the column of shot in the air.

If you lube over the shot wad, by greasing the barrel with a lubed cleaning patch, as I am now doing, it works fine. I am now using Iron Jim Rackham' "System" using ONLY OS cards, but lubing the barrel Before the first powder charge is loaded, and then greasing the bore when I seat the OS cards on top of the shot with each loading. I have eliminated leading in my bores, and seem to have more pellets in my patterns than I did when I was shooting the shot loads over bare metal. Powder residue is very fine, and easily removed with a cleaning patch between shots.

I also found that if I grease the barrel with a lubed cleaning patch BEFORE I LOAD the first powder charge, that oil seems to get into the pores of the steel, and prevent the residue from the burning powder from STICKING to the walls of the bore.

I clean the bore between shots, with a tongue dampened cleaning patch, followed by a dry cleaning patch. Then I lube the barrel after seating the load again. This seems to keep fouling to an absolute minimum, and makes cleaning at the end of the day a snap. ( I am using Young Country 101 lube, the fore runner to Bore Butter, or Wonderlube. Any of the Wax and oil mix lubes would work as well, I am sure.)
 
Tape leaves sticky glue on the outside of the wad, to provide something new to burn in the barrel. You might find using a strip of index card stock, cut to height and length(circumference?) of the inside of the plastic cup to work better. You can put the strips into the cups before going afield, and not worry about them while loading. :thumbsup:
 
Paul, you really need to try something besides always following in someone's else foot steps. Try going to the patterning board with some 1/4" fiber cushions soaked and drained of olive oil. Actually, I saw this being done myself at both Friendship and Batesville and then I tried it myself, it works,it is easy, don't have to handle each cushion to lube them and you can get good patterns. I tried long ago using Bore Butter to lube either a felt cushion or a fiber cushion, I actually tried both types of cushions. I found it messy and for me, it didn't improve anything except the ability for me to get dirtier. Remember I said for me, doing it may show something different for you. Just last night I reloaded my 14ga. shotgun gear, you know powder flasks and shot pouches, capper, cards and cushions. I am not sure how many cushions I prepped as I just cut a bunch of them to 1/4" and threw them in a zip lock bag, then poured olive oil over them. What doesn't soak into the cushion is pooled in the bottom of the bag. Pretty easy to do. I caught that in your recent post about how I do my cushions and felt there is a need to tell how it is done, even if you haven't tried it.

I actually hadn't swabbed my bores since dove season came in. Season went out here, I think, on the 25th. I cleaned the gun this past week after a full season of at least 3 times a week hunting and many shots fired. No problems at all. No rust, no caked up bores, no plastic residue, just used tap water and a nylon bore brush to clean the bores and jag with with patches after that. All was squeeking clean and shiny after about 15min. I then used Ballistol to protect the bore and did it again the next day for insurance. Just like I have done now for a number of years.
 
The only thing I haven't done that you describe is using Olive oil. Actually, I had a Private discussion with one of our moderators- Jim King-- several months ago, and he was able to tell me what I was doing wrong with lubing my wads, that was leading to those donut hole patterns. Just in time, cause I think I have only a couple of hairs left on my head to pull out! :rotf:

As for " following " what others do, I suspect we are all following what others do, to one extent or another. I freely accept suggestions from anyone and everyone, and then go try it and test it. I talk about Iron Jim Rackham's system of using only OS cards, because it also worked for me. It is convenient to take only one kind of wad or card into the field and still get top performance from a cylinder bore gun.

I modified his "system" because of what I saw being done by chunk gun shooters with their rifles. 'They were running a greased cleaning patch down the barrel After seating the PRB. Their primary purpose was to increase the velocity even more than the hot powder charges they use were already sending the ball down range. They also found a significant drop in their Standard Deviation in Velocity.

But, I found that it also kept fouling very soft, protected the bore from rust during the day, and made the bore feel " slicker" with each successive shot. I am sure I am not the first person to notice these things.

RB disclosed that he was using The Next oversized Gauge Felt pre-lubed wads in his smoothbores behind a PRB to both lube and seal the gases.( for instance, in his .54 caliber barrel, {28 gauge}, he uses .58 caliber{24 gauge} pre-lubed felt wads.) I had tried Caliber-sized felt wads that were pre-lubed and simply was not impressed. They did not lube the bore very well, nor act as a "firewall " to protect the PRB very well. His idea makes a lot more sense, and I have it on my list to try, too.


To keep from melting in hot shooting days, and migrating back to the BP and fouling it, Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette shooters have been punching out discs from Wax Paper for years, and placing the disc behind, or under, the base of their bullets when they seat them in the casings. I have tried something similar in my .50 caliber rifle to keep moisture out of my powder, on rainy days. You can use either wax paper, or plastic wrap, cut at the muzzle when you first seat the PRB in the muzzle. to be a vapor barrier. They both work well.

So, lets both follow our "betters" , and thank them for their advice. :surrender: :thumbsup:
 
I can tell by all the "post" there is lots of mileage with muzzleloading shotguns on here. I have a few years myself but seems like I always can come up with new ideas when I read all the "replys". :thumbsup: I had never used olive oil for lube but I gave it a try last week and it seemed to work well. I didnt soak the wads I just quick dipped them. That seemed to be plenty of lube for the few shots I took. Just my 2 cents worth. Keep them ideas coming :hmm:

Wayne/Al
 
Well, my motto is "keep it simple". In this order 1 thru 6.

1...Powder
2...4 over shot cards
3...Shot
4...1 over shot card
5...Prime the pan
6...Shoot

Tried allot of different wads and combos. This throws a nice pattern out to 30 yards with my .62 smoothbore and all I carry is over shot cards.
 
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