newbies like to learn thing from the masters, please forgive me.

[Juice Jaws]

yes i like hot topics as they help me learn more. i want to learn every possible thing i can and i need input from others. i dont think hot is the right word. i think thinking out of the box and leaning from those around us and from the past is what i do. the thing that made the gun maker i am to day and the long range shooter i am is this. old morg shot the first shot at the battle of new orleans and it was a off hand shot at a little over 200 yards and it took the jack ass young brit officer to the other side. it sent a round ball through his head and ear level.i learned from research how to do that my self. if i was their at that battle some of those 3000 plus brits that fell that day with mostly head shots at 100 yards would easily been mine. i would have slept well that night. after that battle the brits never tried to take us on again. only around 9 to 11 americans were killed that day, most of them was native american scouts. those brits never met 500 long rifles like they did that day. they attacked the center where the long rifles were thinking that those rifles could only shoot small critters and such. the only other american battle that was that one sided was in what is now north dakota. the french cree chippawa stood off 4000 sioux and their was less than 100 of them, it was 1856. they fought two battles that day. one french cree chippawa was killed over and over 2000 sioux were killed or wounded. never again did the sioux mess with the northern mixed bloods. those mixed bloods had fine stone lock rifles. they also fought the canadians to a stand still until they run out of lead for bullets. my great grandmother was one of them and im proud to be apart of their blood. my son also married one of them. i also have 2 grandchildren that are them and a great grandaughter also. she also has the blood of a great standing rock war chief in her, chief gaul.chief gaul was a bull of a man and my great grandaughter is strong also and does she love to dance. ok thats enough from the north of america, have a good day every one.

YAWN

 

[Britsmoothy]

I wrote to Lyman:

"Has Lyman ever done any pressure and/or velocity testing of 4F black powder as the main charge in long arms?"

I got a reply today.

"We would not test the 4F as it is too fine of a granulation and will increase the risk of “cook offs” and dangerous!."

Spence

That is also a strange reply in my opinion.
Cook offs are associated with rapid firing automatic cartridge systems!
And as for "dangerous" !!!!! With out data how do they know!

I would expect this reply from someone who's title is expert. X being the unknown factor and pert as in an erect nipple!

If there is no test data they can't or should not assume a comment unless of course they think they should cover their rear ends!

Thanks for your effort Spence.

 

[Carbon 6]

That is also a strange reply in my opinion.



If there is no test data they can't or should not assume a comment unless of course they think they should cover their rear ends!

Thanks for your effort Spence.

Well, I haven't heard it described quite like that but i guess they are correct if I assume their meaning properly.

There is lots of test data, They are just "prohibited from sharing it" just like posting it on the forum would be.

OK Brit, your turn to contact Swiss and see what they say.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Well, I haven't heard it described quite like that but i guess they are correct if I assume their meaning properly.

There is lots of test data, They are just "prohibited from sharing it" just like posting it on the forum would be.

OK Brit, your turn to contact Swiss and see what they say.

Don't need to, I made my decision years ago thanks, with out experts.

 

[Carbon 6]

Don't need to, I made my decision years ago thanks, with out experts.

Sounds good then, Happy hunting.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The advice I give "newbies" is to find a mentor that is a flintlock shooter with gray hair, both eyebrows, all his fingers and a freezer full of venison.

 

[George]

Looking through my first edition Lyman handbook at the revolver data using 4F powder reminded me of a blurb I collected some time ago about Colt and the powder for his revolvers in the day. If you decide to read through it, you might want to get a cup of coffee, it's long.

"REVOLVER GUNPOWDER of the Percussion Revolver Era”
By Greg Nelson
The Percussion Revolver Yahoo Group

The new powder for revolvers was at first called "Cartridge Powder", due to its initial use for revolver combustible cartridges. Using "Cartridge Powder", a charge of only 25 grains would move a 220-grain conical close to velocities requiring 40 grains of rifle-grade gunpowder in the Colt Dragoon. The use of a smaller charge of gunpowder for the same performance, also gave the advantage of less fouling, so that a revolver could be fired more often until disabled by fouling buildup.

In 1855, at the time Colt's Cartridge Works began operation, Samuel Colt and Colonel Augustus Hazard were well acquainted. Colonel Hazard was the owner of Hazard Powder Company, so it is no coincidence that Colt's Cartridge packets are all marked "Made with Hazard's Powder", as shown on the Dragoon combustible packet illustrated in Photo "A". It seems likely and probable, that Hazard Powder Company was the originator of a "Cartridge Powder" formulated for best performance in revolvers. The early 1860's packet of D. C. Sage .44 Army Combustibles illustrated in Photo "B" are marked "Made of Hazard's First Quality Cartridge Powder".

In AMERICAN MANUFACTURERS of COMBUSTIBLE AMMUNITION (AMCA), author Terry White discovered the gunpowder type "Number 1 Pistol Powder" in the records of H. W. Mason. Both Hazard Powder and American Powder Company supplied this gunpowder type to Mason's combustible cartridge shop. Illustrated in Photo "C" is a .44 Army combustible packet made by H. W. Mason marked "Made with Hazard's Powder". Hazard's "First Quality Cartridge Powder" and "Number 1 Pistol Powder" are trade names for the generic powder type clearly identified as "Revolver Powder" in "THE GUN" (TG) by author W. W. Greener.

Knowing that a special "Revolver Powder" existed for percussion revolvers, and even knowing all the names for that special powder still does not describe what it is and how it differs from the familiar FFFg and FFg powders, for those of us in the 21st Century rediscovering the percussion revolver. Lucky for us, however, in the last half of the 19th Century, Major John Symington [commandant] at the Allegheny Arsenal near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, dissected and test fired some of Colt's revolver combustibles and wrote a very clear description of "Revolver Powder". W.W. Greener went even further, and provided an illustration of gunpowder granulations in his book "THE GUN"! Pictured among those granulations is a grade marked "Revolver Powder" and it precisely matches the written description of Major Symington.

Major Symington's written description of the Hazard Powder used in Colt's combustible cartridges is quoted from pages 5 and 7 of "ROUND BALL to RIMFIRE, PART 3" (RBRF3), and is from reports written to Chief of Ordnance Colonel Henry K. Craig in June 1860.

Major Symington describes Colt's combustibles as, "The larger bullet was .456 in. diameter, and weighed 230 grains; the charge of powder weighed 20 grains. The small bullet was .383 in. diameter, and weighed 120 grains; the powder charge weighed 12 grains. The powder of both sizes of cartridges was of very fine grain called sporting powder, manufactured specially for these arms...."

After test firing Colt's combustibles, Major Symington reported, "The severity of shock [recoil] was due to the rapid combustion of such fine grained powder, particularly noted in Colt's cartridges, the powder of which is of special make.....'.

On page 552 of "THE GUN" (TG), the powder granulation illustration (Photo "D") shows "Revolver Powder" to be very fine grained exactly as Major Symington described the Hazard gunpowder used in Colt's combustible cartridges. The Hazard Powder described by Major Symington, and the "Revolver Powder" illustrated in THE GUN, is practically identical to FFFFg granulation today.

In the section on "Black Powder" in UNDERSTANDING FIREARMS BALLISTICS (UFB), author Robert A. Rinker's clear explanation of gunpowder characteristics, clarifies the Hazard Powder Company decision to provide FFFFg sporting-grade gunpowder for revolver use. "Experience and experimentation taught early gunners that particle size controlled the speed of combustion...............FFFFg was the smallest particle with the fastest burn rate and is used mainly in handguns." (UFB, page 23).

With a bit of thought, it becomes clear why the short chambers of a revolver's rotating breech would require a special powder capable of rapid combustion. Obviously, coarse-grained musket and rifle-grade gunpowders designed for use in barrel lengths of 30 inches and longer are not going to perform efficiently in a combustion chamber averaging a bit over an inch in length. With that bit of reasoning in mind, the Hazard Powder Company decision that very fine grain (FFFFg) gunpowder was best suited to the percussion revolver's combustion dynamics makes a lot of sense.

Hazard Powder Company's "Revolver Powder" was a fast-combusting FFFFg made from high performance Sporting-grade gunpowder, providing the most power possible from a given charge of gunpowder! This very potent Hazard "Number 1 Pistol Powder" is precisely the "First Quality Cartridge Powder" Hazard provided to Colt, D.C. Sage, H. W. Mason and other manufacturers of revolver combustible cartridges.

Now, before anyone runs out to buy a can of Swiss Blackpowder FFFFg to stuff in their favorite percussion "smoke wagon", be aware that FFFFg can be VERY DANGEROUS, ESPECIALLY in a revolver, unless you precisely understand the problems unique to FFFFg, that can arise from FFFFg use in a revolver.

Loaded properly with due caution, and with CORRECT charges, FFFFg is perfectly safe, and makes an excellent percussion revolver propellant. Near the end of this article I will detail the dangers that can arise from FFFFg use in a revolver. By understanding the possible dangers that can arise with improper use of FFFFg, the proper and safe use of this very fine grain powder in revolvers will be very clear.

As explained earlier, "Revolver Gunpowder" of the period from 1855 to 1875, was revealed to be sporting-grade gunpowder in FFFFg granulation. Combustible cartridges made by Colt's Cartridge Works used very fine grain sporting-grade gunpowder as documented by Major John Symington in June 1860. Major Symington of the Allegheny Arsenal near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, had dissected and test fired Colt's combustibles in .36 and .44 caliber, detailing their construction and performance in his June 1860 report to Chief of Ordnance Colonel Henry T. Craig.

Major Symington did not like Colt's combustible cartridges, because they recoiled sharply when fired, and because Colt's prices were too high. For test purposes, Major Symington constructed revolver combustibles at the Allegheny Arsenal, using tissue paper (similar to gift-wrapping tissue) envelopes and replacing the very fine grain sporting grade gunpowder with fine grain (FFFg) rifle grade powder. He thought the FFFg still generated too much recoil and recommended using musket-grade powder to keep recoil light! It appears that Major Symington was more interested in an easily controlled handgun rather than maximum power.

Spence

 

[Britsmoothy]

Looking through my first edition Lyman handbook at the revolver data using 4F powder reminded me of a blurb I collected some time ago about Colt and the powder for his revolvers in the day. If you decide to read through it, you might want to get a cup of coffee, it's long.



Spence

Great read Spence. Thanks for you diligent research.
I'm waiting for the contradictions to flood in now

 

[Juice Jaws]

Great read Spence. Thanks for you diligent research.
I'm waiting for the contradictions to flood in now

Now I know anyone can write a book but I just brought " Handbook of Modern Percussion Revolvers" by Michael Morgan. And in there under Powder he said that 3f is what is use the most but for small bore revolvers 4F is fine . Now the one thing he does say about 4F is he would not use it in brass frame revolvers just because of the wear factor. My three cents worth.

 

[Bo T]

Looking through my first edition Lyman handbook at the revolver data using 4F powder reminded me of a blurb I collected some time ago about Colt and the powder for his revolvers in the day. If you decide to read through it, you might want to get a cup of coffee, it's long.
Spence

I've read in a couple of places that graphited powder has different burn characteristics than non-graphited powder. It suddenly occurred to me, after reading your reference, that modern 4fg with graphite could have significantly lower sharpness to the recoil than the 4fg powders of the mid 19th century. This would also suggest that graphited powder might be much safer for use in rifles than the non-graphited variety.

 

[dixie5032]

There is one manufacturer that recommends 4F in their BP revolvers; NAA for their Companion series mouse killers. From the instruction sheet:
"Using the furnished powder measure (which holds 2.5 grains black powder FFFFH or Pyrodex, for the NAA Companion LR, and 4 grains for the NAA Companion Magnum), pour into each chamber 1 (one) level measure full. CAUTION - do not overload or use other than the recommended powder." I assume that the H in FFFFH is a typo and is the same as 4F.

From their Q&A section which seems to contradict the use of "other than the recommended powder":
"Yes, you can use fffg and pyrodex p. The f stand for fine, the ffffg is a finer powder, and will allow you to add more powder allowing more of a discharge. Do not go less than fffg."

 

[Carbon 6]

I've read in a couple of places that graphited powder has different burn characteristics than non-graphited powder..

Yes, as does corned powder.

 

[MichaelMichael]

Those sizes are considerably different than the sizes of the granules for the F rated sizes.

The RFG values of 1 to 2 millimeters equals .039-.078 inches.
The RLG values of 2 to 6 mm equals .078-.236 inches.

For comparison one source says:

Fg = 1.19-1.68 mm = .047-.066 inches
FFg = 0.59-1.19 mm = .023-.047 inches
FFFg = 0.29-0.84 mm = .009-.033 inches
FFFFg= 0.15-0.42 mm = .006-.017 inches

Black Powder Grades, Sizes and Mesh

Another source says:

Fg = 1.7 mm avg. = .066 inches
FFg = 1.18 mm avg. = .047 inches
FFFg = 0.85 mm avg. = .033 inches
FFFFg = 0.47 mm avg. = .019 inches

Black Powder - IV: Powder Grain Sizes

Where can you buy screen to make your own sifters. FFg and FFFg.

 

[Zonie]

The opening in a screen depends on the screen wire size and the number of wires per inch.
Here is a link to a chart that gives some of the screen sizes that are available.

https://www.iwmesh.com/technical-mesh/
The opening size in the screen should be the maximum size for a given powder so any powder smaller than the screen opening will fall thru.

For a 2Fg powder, the opening size should be .047. The screen in the charts I linked say a 20 X .020 with .005 wire has an opening of .045. That's close enough for government work. Likewise for 3Fg powder the opening should be .033. A 24 X 24 with .005 wire has an opening of .037. That's a little larger than I'm looking for but for sifting powder it's close enough for me.

Of course, the powder needs to be sifted with screens starting at the finest grade to keep the larger sizes behind for further sifting. You want the smallest size removed first to keep it from contaminating the courser grades that won't fall thru the screen. Once the fine stuff is removed, move the powder to the next courser size and sift it again. Everything that falls thru the screen becomes that grade.
This is repeated with courser and courser grades until you reach the size your wanting.
Anything larger than this would need to be broken down to a smaller size and the process of screen would start all over again.

This is beginning to sound like that four letter word that ends with "k".
As you might know, work isn't something I relish.

 

[William Lincoln]

We have had this 3f vs 4f controversy for a while. Both powders are powerful and go bang.
At the range, actually shooting, good 3f is awesome power. I have the Lyman manual(1973)
that charts 4f, but that was a ways back . For safety and legal reasons, I stay with what the
manufacturers recommend, which is 2f-3f for rifles and 3f for pistols. Now if they can prove
that the deer I shoot with 4f weighs 20 lbs more than the same deer shot with 3f, then at
that time, I will have to reconsider my position on 4f.
As for CVA, because of the long history as Importer and partner in manufacturing you
have different products and controversy around those. These guns are usually of
Spanish origin. Spanish arms have a long history and, like the Italians, there is National
pride involved. The CVA Hawken style guns are good guns---price aside. They are top
shooters and depending upon the maintenance history, definite ones to consider. I
gave one each to my Son and Grandson. Yes T/C has the big name. But I would not
feel underpowered or cheated in the woods with a nice CVA Hawken Style Rifle.

 

[appalichian hunter]

3f goex for main charge 4f to prime every thing with a flint lock, 3f in the hand guns, 2f in the unmentionable BP cartridge rifles. Have done this for years, punches holes In paper and the critters I shoot at. Whats all the hoopla about.

 

[S.Kenton]

The hoopla went on about a year ago, most of the guys who were involved with the discussion aren’t even active members anymore.

 

[.36Rooster]

I would like to thank Mr. BlackHillsBob for this thread. I've been a member of this forum for several months and its a rare occurance when almost anyone speaks positively of a CVA rifle...

1st muzzleloader was a used cva hawken as a teenager. Would hit a pie plate every time at 100 yds. I had it because, in indiana, i thought, all of the serious deer hunters used muzzleloaders instead of shotguns (the only two firearms allowed for deer hunting).

 

[MichaelMichael]

The opening in a screen depends on the screen wire size and the number of wires per inch.
Here is a link to a chart that gives some of the screen sizes that are available.

https://www.iwmesh.com/technical-mesh/
The opening size in the screen should be the maximum size for a given powder so any powder smaller than the screen opening will fall thru.

For a 2Fg powder, the opening size should be .047. The screen in the charts I linked say a 20 X .020 with .005 wire has an opening of .045. That's close enough for government work. Likewise for 3Fg powder the opening should be .033. A 24 X 24 with .005 wire has an opening of .037. That's a little larger than I'm looking for but for sifting powder it's close enough for me.

Of course, the powder needs to be sifted with screens starting at the finest grade to keep the larger sizes behind for further sifting. You want the smallest size removed first to keep it from contaminating the courser grades that won't fall thru the screen. Once the fine stuff is removed, move the powder to the next courser size and sift it again. Everything that falls thru the screen becomes that grade.
This is repeated with courser and courser grades until you reach the size your wanting.
Anything larger than this would need to be broken down to a smaller size and the process of screen would start all over again.

This is beginning to sound like that four letter word that ends with "k".
As you might know, work isn't something I relish.

Thank you for answering my question on screen sizes for different grades of powder. I will give the company a call and check on purchasing some screen. I'll keep you posted on my progress. Thanks again and have a blessed day.