NO LOGIC AT ALL. I THINK

[L Rupp]

In regards to the early days of bench rest shooting.... "Stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man"... Mr. H Pope

 

[Zonie]

There was a shooting match in 1477 held in Eichstadtm, Brandenburg (Germany). The distance was 200 paces.

"In feudal areas, during th 16th and 16th centuries, Casle motes were the most often selected for rifle ranges. The place selected was enclosed by a wall, hedge or wooden fence as a safety measure. An hour glas or clock was provided to allocate the time for each shot. The most popular distance for shooting was 150-200 paces..." ("Pictorial History of the RIFLE", © G.W.P.Swenson, 1972. p 42)

 

[Coot]

We know of big international matches at two and three hundred yards from early sixteenth century.
I think creedmoore matches were with breechloaders and off hand. I think it was the 1890s that saw the rebirth of the big ml bench guns fitted with the false muzzles sand built in sprite levels and such. It may have been earlier, but I’m thinking it became a thing in the 90s

The first international match at Creedmore was in 1874, between the US & Ireland. The US team used Remington Rolling Blocks and Sharps, the Irish, muzzleloading Rigby rifles. Ranges were 800, 900 & 1000 yards. Rules allowed any shooting position but no artifical rests - hence the "strange" (to us today) position of lying on ones' back & resting the barrel on ones' boots was common.

 

[Zonie]

Yes. I know that but I'm kinda covering my eyes to the facts because the cut off date for the Muzzleloading Forum is 1865 so we really shouldn't be discussing the Creedmore event that took place in 1874. The Rolling blocks also used primed cartridges, another thing we aren't supposed to discuss on the forum.

Let's please get off duscussions about the long range Creedmore and other events that took place after 1865. I wouldn't want to have to remove this topic.

 

[tenngun]

Yes. I know that but I'm kinda covering my eyes to the facts because the cut off date for the Muzzleloading Forum is 1865 so we really shouldn't be discussing the Creedmore event that took place in 1874. The Rolling blocks also used primed cartridges, another thing we aren't supposed to discuss on the forum.

Let's please get off duscussions about the long range Creedmore and other events that took place after 1865. I wouldn't want to have to remove this topic.

And that brings up an interesting quandary.
I didn’t know there were muzzelloaders in Creedmoor matches, I had only seen the breechloaders.
Are the big bench target rifles traditional ml?
The only time I’ve seen reference to loading tube was in these big guns, and as I said I understood them tho have gotten big in the 1890s or so.
But there were some match locks made with built in rest to set on a bench. They were shooting smoothies at thes two hundred yard plus ranges.
I can’t think of any advantage a loading tube could make, and don’t know when they were invented.
But are they ‘traditional’, are loading blocks( may be early but can’t be proved before about 1870) or starters (I think 1845+ is the earliest we can prove these in modren form).... hmm
Many of our minnie balls and are maxies or real are post 1865, but we feed them to our traditional guns.
Just for sake of argument, let us pretend that the NMLRA invented them in 1940 for there bench rest ml competition are they ok to talk about or use?

 

[Carbon 6]

I think creedmoore matches were with breechloaders and off hand.

You'll enjoy reading this.
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/marksmanship/art-of-shooting/the-back-position

 

[tenngun]

I guess ‘off hand’ was an exaggeration vs no artificial supports.
Some how I hear Santa Claus from A Christmas Story’ telling me ‘you’ll shoot your foot off kid’.

 

[TFoley]

There was a shooting match in 1477 held in Eichstadtm, Brandenburg (Germany). The distance was 200 paces.

"In feudal areas, during th 16th and 16th centuries, Casle motes were the most often selected for rifle ranges. The place selected was enclosed by a wall, hedge or wooden fence as a safety measure. An hour glas or clock was provided to allocate the time for each shot. The most popular distance for shooting was 150-200 paces..." ("Pictorial History of the RIFLE", © G.W.P.Swenson, 1972. p 42)

Indeed. The moat at the tower of London actually enclosed the rifle range, where, in WW2, a number of spies where executed by firing squad.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

When I read using a 45 inch (for a 42 in barrel )brass tube down the barrel every time you shoot would promote premature barrel erosion.

Being the patch is wet, it should push any flakes down with it.

I have a drop tube. I made it, just the 3 foot tube was $30.
The reason for the tube is to a line all the powder flakes so they will compress evenly.

 

[Nazgul58]

"Those late 19th and early 20th century folks were way more serious about accuracy than anyone shooting today. "
How does this make sense? Not only do we have better tech to measure all aspects of accuracy, we have better and more consistent components and more time to examine accuracy.

Don

 

[Griz44Mag]

"Those late 19th and early 20th century folks were way more serious about accuracy than anyone shooting today. "
How does this make sense? Not only do we have better tech to measure all aspects of accuracy, we have better and more consistent components and more time to examine accuracy.

Don

I pretty much see that the legends of super hero long range shots from bygone days are the fairy tales of the future.
There were no cameras, cell phones, internet or any other such thing to keep things honest, not that they really do anyway.
I have personally seen targets posted on websites that came from shooters and place I have been, groups at 50 yards posted and claimed as 100 or 200 yards. One such photo from the rifle club I belonged to in Austin claimed a 200 yard group, but being a decades long member of that range I recognized the margins of the photo as belonging to the 50 yard rifle dedicated scope sighting in bench area.
In the late 19th and 20th century you mentioned, I can also imagine some of that magical data being "interpreted" by the shooter in the same fashion, except back then, there was no way for the facts to be properly vetted. Fishermen will always be fishermen, and shooters will always be shooter..... take it all with a grain of salt and an understanding of human nature.

Great example - ever watch Quigley Down Under? The shot he took where he killed 2 men?
At the distance and speed of the round, the sonic boom of the rifle report. Started supersonic, but was way under sonic speed by the time the bullet got to the target. The sound, traveling at the speed of sound, would have caught the bullet and passed it. The report would have gotten there before the bullet. And the angle of approach would have been at such a high angle it would not have hit two guys standing on the porch, it would only have hit them if they were laying on top of each other.

A matter of legend and self reporting, or the real facts twisted as they got repeated from person to person until they became the legends....

 

[Johnny Tremain]

You do not have to go back in history that far.
Before Chronies became affordable everyone used loading tables and guessed.
My ole man was real good at guessing.

 

[smo]

I always thought a tight patched roundball would push any powder remaining in the barrel downward as it was being loaded......

 

[Dphar1950]

To me this only means that 99% of the time static will not ignite loose black powder . The powder that went off from static was wrapped in Kyser Foil ( Tin Foil from the 60's ) to be used as charges for a cannon . He was wearing a wool sweater and rubbed his sweaty hands on it right before reaching for a charge . Witnesses said there was a pop followed by an explosion. The charges were stacked in several old wooden artillery cartridge boxes . Old saying is " Never say Never " .

Interesting. I wonder if the foil somehow got heated by the static charge and caused the ignition? This would be an interesting project for someone with the equipment to test it. I agree "never" can cause problems in almost any subject. But remember the British Navy at least from my readings, used wool felt powder bags for charges for ship board cannon. Army might have as well. But aluminum foil was hard to come by in those times. I suspect that felt was used because the bores would be wet from swabbing after the previous shot and the felt was pretty waterproof. I also suspect that felt is less prone to building static than wool fabric.

 

[Dphar1950]

We know of big international matches at two and three hundred yards from early sixteenth century.
I think creedmoore matches were with breechloaders and off hand. I think it was the 1890s that saw the rebirth of the big ml bench guns fitted with the false muzzles sand built in sprite levels and such. It may have been earlier, but I’m thinking it became a thing in the 90s

The 200-1000+ yard matches were NOT shot offhand. Further until the schuezten craze hit the US very few rifle matches were shot offhand. Most were shot from a rest. Shooting offhand is "a poor test of a rifle". We shoot so many ML matches offhand now that we have forgotten this fact.

 

[smoothshooter]

This has long puzzled me. Some the allegedly very best muzzleloading riflemen do not pour their powder charges down the barrel where some of the powder might not fall all the way to the breech but for static electricity might adhere to the barrel side not all the way down.
To avoid this problem they insert a long tube down the barrel and pour the powder down that so that all the powder collects neatly in the breech ready for the firing spark.
What puzzles me is the fact that the powder might stick to the side of the tube and remain there and never get to the breech at all. I don't know what the tubes are made of but in most cases as they pass through tour hands the static electric will really build up. That's really the second lapse in logic th first being that if in pouring the powder down the actual steel barrel some flecks or more of the powder adheres to the steel partway down won't the rather tight fitting patched ball sweep if off the bore wall and into the breech where it and all the other powder are waiting for the firing spark.

This practice continues in spite of my thoughts and so. one might figure. there remains a good reason for doing it.
Would some Maven out there explain it to me?
Dutch Schoultz

The tube would keep powder granules from sticking to the bore if there was lubricant from previous shots present, and mixing more of the lubricant with the forward part of the powder charge.
Don’t know that it really matters, but I guess it could improve one’s shooting if they think it does.

 

[sussexmuzllodr]

All I know is that Alvin York cut center and won the beef critter....

 

[tenngun]

The 200-1000+ yard matches were NOT shot offhand. Further until the schuezten craze hit the US very few rifle matches were shot offhand. Most were shot from a rest. Shooting offhand is "a poor test of a rifle". We shoot so many ML matches offhand now that we have forgotten this fact.

Did not know that.
I only shoot off hand when I have to.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Did not know that.
I only shoot off hand when I have to.

I try and keep fairly proficient with bench, sticks and free standing.
When hunting - I try to be mostly concealed in trees or brush with something close (like a tree trunk) to steady myself off of.
The days where I am steady enough to hunt full free standing are over. Between age, degrading eyesight and Arthur Ritus the old gray stallion ain't what he used to be.

 

[Dphar1950]

The British built many fine 10 pound percussion LR rifles and in fact the first international matches in the US were US breechloaders against the British ML rifles. The heel sight was used in the back position. This is a Rigby. They were generally 45 caliber and shot 100 gr of powder and a 500-550 grain PP bullet.