No patches/wads for revolvers?

[Crow Choker]

I am one who discovered the error of filling the tank of my '72 Olds Cutlass with Diesel fuel. .350 rocket V-8 engines just don't run well on it.

Ah-thee Ol' Rocket V8---I'm glad I grew up as a kid in the late 50's, teen in the 60's and was in 20's threw the70's before all of the emissions and V6's and 4 bangers came onto the scene. Was able to witness and appreciate what cars were back then. That Olds 350 was a good engine. The 60's 283's, 327's, 427's, 383's, 396's, 390's, 429's, etc were powerhouses. I had a 350 HP 4 barrel 300 horse in my 70 El Camino that wasn't a slouch. Needed to keep 300# or so in the back end. Still have that machine. Made the mistake late one night when needing gas in a sort of emergency (it ran on 'high test' gas-- all the filling stations closed up at around 6PM) of dumping around 4-5 gallons mixed snowmobile gas into the tank. Didn't run worth a hoot. Some lowlifes stole some fuel from my wife's Dad (was a farmer) one night, they got around a short mile down the road due to the fact they stole diesel. Deputy talked with them there. Lots of stores like that.

 

[Stantheman86]

Don’t use dip, it’s very bad for your health. Try Swedish snus, the father of American dip. It’s processed and manufactured in a way that all but eliminates carcinogens and has been heavily studied with no links to increased disease risk of any kind.

I just quit using all of it

I did use the Camel and Skoal Snus for years

 

[Stantheman86]

Sure back in the 1800's most were loaded without wads or grease over the balls, but even though the steel back then wasn't the quality it is today, their cappers were in a whole different league. Better tolerances, timing, and the caps really fit the nipples better (cones if you wish). Things have gotten some better with reproduction revolvers than they were back in the 1960-70's era and more information and knowledge is available. I started out with a 1972 era Euroarms and it was a nightmare to shoot, ie timing, cap fit. There just wasn't the number of shooters back then requiring better guns. I've noticed a huge difference in bore cleanliness since I quit the grease over the ball and switched over to a lubed wad. Even the Ox-Yoke wads I add more home brew lube to. In the summer time I use a stiffer lube that is not as affected by hot days and any cold weather shooting I use a lube than doesn't make the felt wad hard and not pliable.

Most of the writers and such shooting percussion revolvers advocate a wad between powder and ball. I'll agree it isn't totally necessary, but IMO and many others it's a big helper. If I were going to not fire a loaded percussion revolver for some time, especially in fairly warm and hot weather, I'd probably refrain from a wad, especially a lubed one, but that is rare. The cappers aren't a self defense weapon for me. If walking along a river or wooded area plinking I might carry a loaded capper for up to an hour maybe without firing, but I've never had one fail in years.

Stanman' I don't know where you learned the art of percussion shooting or get some of the ideas you post, but I can shoot my Walker and Dragoons alot and not have to take them down, swab the barrel, regrease the arbor or anything else. Back in the day of greasing over the balls, the revolvers especially from the chamber mouths and barrel would need wiping down at times, not to mention keeping a rag for greasy/oily hands. Firing the first or after the 2nd, the flames/heat would blow/melt the lube. Maybe your guns don't get dirty due to the fact you shoot too much 1F powder through them that isn't fully burning, lots of unburned powder is blowing out the barrel due to the larger grain size vs 2F or 3F. The Dragoon and Walker barrels just aren't long enough to burn 1F, much less heavy/max loads of 2 or 3F. You're the only person I know shooting 1F in percussion revolvers. All of the big-name magazine and on-line writers don't. Have never seen any ballistic charts advocating it. You yourself stated in another thread just recently that you bought 20-25 pounds of 1F not long ago and figured you might as well shoot it up. Telling others (especially new shooters) on this forum it is OK and reasonable to do so is not good responsibility as far as spewing facts about what to use IMO. If you want to do it, your right, but telling others when they ask what powder to use and you indicate its ok is a bit over the line. I could tell a diesel fueled vehicle owner it was ok to put gasoline in their tank and it will run is ok, but eventually they'll find out I was full of cattle droppings. I've known a few who tried, also those who put diesel in their gas tanks.

1F in every publication and charts I've seen in the last 51 years of black powder shooting rate 1F black powder for small cannons and big bore rifles 58 caliber and plus. All my 36 caliber revolvers and the 1860 size frame 44 caliber one's get 3F. I will shoot both 2 and 3F in my Dragoons and Walker but it seems 2F is getting the better choice of the two, although other than noticing less felt recoil with 2F vs 3F, I haven't noticed any difference in accuracy. It's a fact that 2F has a slower build up of pressure (lower pressure curve) than 3F. Same principle when you reload a smokeless cartridge, powders differ in burn rate, how fast they ignite, build pressure to push the bullet down the barrel, and how clean they burn. I reload my 44 Colt and 45 Colt metallic rounds with 2F, started with 3F some years ago then a long time shooter of the 44 and 45 Colts pointed out to me the pressure curve principle. Have since read some on the advantages of using 2F in a cartridge handgun. Can apply to black powder rifle also.

Its been proven that grease over the ball will not prevent chain fires. Many really seasoned shooters and writers have stated that the grease over the ball does little to prevent the barrel from getting 'gunked up'. A tight fitting ball, esp one that shaves a little lead and tight fitting caps are the biggest prevention. Those who have researched and done field tests have proven the tight vs loose percussion cap chain fire prevention. The Remington #10 caps I use for 99% of my shooting fight tight and never have any blow off when firing, if one does it is so rare that I can't recall the last time it happened. Rem and CCI 11's fit good also, but the Rem 10's have a longer skirt that goes down over the tapered shaft of the nipple. If I need to take any off before firing any, I need to take my fingernail or the edge of a knife blade under the cap and pop it off. Rem 10 and CCI and Rem #11's all have the same internal dimension at the top of the cap. The Rem 10's just have a longer skirt. CCI #10's have around a 0.005" decrease in internal dimension and the shortest skirt of any of them. That's why they don't fit worth a hoot, requiring a wooden dowl to seat them. I tired that and it made me nervous. Had split a brick of them with a fellow shooter, still have around 450 of them sitting in my cap storage container. My friend hasn't found a use for them either after 15 years or so when we bought them. (RWS 1075's are similar in dimensions to Rem and CCI #11's-I've used them some and they work all right in most instances but Rem 10's is my go too).

No intention in getting in a cyber argument with you 'Stanman', but in reading many of your posts over the last week or so you've stated alot of things pertaining to shooting and caring for a black powder revolver that are skeptical. If you want to argue, you'll have to do so with yourself. I'll discuss what I've learned in the 51 years of percussion shooting, have read, and listened to with you or anyone. If I'm wrong on something I'll change my thoughts and/or methods, but I won't adhere to ideas that I know go against the grain and may steer shooters the wrong way. I've seen alot of online forum shooters who want to argue, are too stubborn and/or uniformed to admit or consider the truth. By the way, I think I'll stock up on aluminum foil due to the fact that when your pioneering and ground breaking method of fixing the short arbors on Colt open top style guns by stuffing aluminum foil in the arbor hole hits the airwaves and percussion circles, store shelves will readily empty. Have a good day Stan and everyone on the forum. Crow Choker

I'm not going to argue with you because I honestly don't care if you live, die or grow mushrooms in your crack pal

Don't like what I say? Block Me

I honestly need to block you because your massive runon rambling paragraphs are just word pollution.

Here's how many of my guns you've paid for =0

Here's how much of my ammo you pay for = 0

My opinion of your 51 years of knowledge = 0

 

[No second place]

I was watching some YouTube black powder videos and they mentioned not needing patches or wads to shoot. They were loading balls so, I questioned this being a reasonable way to load. Or, perhaps they had some 'special' cylinder mod to support this?

Can you load without patches or wads in any revolver? Is this just a trick for plinking a lot of rounds?

TIA,
Sid

You don't mention your intended use...So...Any B. powder type and amount down to about 3gr.to toped off and compressed,which Lube or not works fine for plinking and playing at the range. Most are not proficient enough with pistols to notice any difference aside from recoil. Successful precision match shooters and even some serious hunters use loads they develope and prove for their specific use...c

 

[Bunk]

I'm not going to argue with you because I honestly don't care if you live, die or grow mushrooms in your crack pal

Don't like what I say? Block Me

I honestly need to block you because your massive runon rambling paragraphs are just word pollution.

Here's how many of my guns you've paid for =0

Here's how much of my ammo you pay for = 0

My opinion of your 51 years of knowledge = 0

NOW BOYS LET'S PLAY NICE

 

[Stantheman86]

NOW BOYS LET'S PLAY NICE

I actually edited my original comment, to this more family friendly version

Tin Foil, toilet seat screws, washers.....metal is metal , who cares . My guns work and work well. This is a hobby , this isn't my life, stop being a negative Nancy or a typical Fudd that makes us all look bad. We're better than that , there, Mr Crow Choker......maybe.....

 

[Notchy Bob]

I could see a Mini-Ball base swelling to seal the barrel like a patch but, I didn't realize a good lead ball would seal it too.

@sidpost

If you have a new cap and ball revolver, it probably came with a manual. You'll have to wade through a bunch of the obligatory warnings, but it should have loading information and will be worth reading. If you prefer videos, some of the guys here can recommend some good ones to you, but I would not just do a search on YouTube and necessarily expect solid information. I've only watched a few, but some that I have seen are full of jaw-dropping nonsense.

Generally speaking, muzzle-loading single shot pistols can be loaded with patched balls, but revolvers are a totally different set-up. "Bore size," for us black powder shooters, is measured from land-to-land. So, most .44 caliber cap and ball revolvers have a bore size of .440". Groove depth is usually around .006", so bottom of groove to bottom of the opposite groove would be around .452". Most of these .44 caliber revolvers take a .454" or even a .457" pure lead ball. This will be a tight fit in the chamber, but you want that so it will seal the chamber mouth. When the powder charge detonates, the ball may obturate or "bump up" a little, but the forcing cone in the rear end of the barrel will swage it back to the right size, so it fully engages the grooves. You really can't use a patched ball in a revolver. Somebody, somewhere, has probably tried it, but has been too embarrassed to share the results. At best, I'm sure the patch would be stripped off the ball as it passes through the forcing cone, and there is no telling where said patch will end up.

I have applied grease over the balls after they are rammed home in the chambers, because it was recommended, but my experience has been exactly as described by @Crow Choker ... upon the first shot, the grease on all five unfired chambers melts and runs off. Maybe a film of grease is left, but most of it is liquified and smears over the front end of the cylinder, the frame, and then your hands and everything you touch. This doesn't hurt anything, and it will still help keep fouling on the cylinder, frame, and barrel soft and easy to wipe off, but it's messy and I don't necessarily think it helps much with sealing the chambers. Wear old clothes when you shoot cap and ball revolvers, especially if you put grease over the chamber mouths. I like a lubricated felt wad under the ball. As someone on page 1 noted, it's the ball that seals the chamber, not the grease. The grease just helps keep fouling soft, and if a greased wad is under the ball, the grease won't immediately melt when the other chambers are fired.

@B P Maniac Shooter makes good videos. He has fun and he employs safe shooting practices and sensible loading techniques. I have not watched all of his videos, but he probably has one or more on revolver shooting, and the information he provides is entertaining and reliable. I'm sure the folks on this forum can recommend some other YouTube video series for you, but if you are new to blackpowder shooting, I would not recommend browsing for random videos on your own. Get some recommendations for trustworthy ones.

Good luck to you, and be safe!

Notchy Bob

 

[Stantheman86]

Yap, aluminum foil is just like stainless steel . . .
Who cares? I do ( and many others)

This "hobby" is serious to some, and some do make a living at it . . .

Smart A$$ answers make this whole forum look like a joke.

Again, 45D...

I checked my pay stub to see if your opinion made a difference....nope it's still the same . We'll have to agree just not to care about each other or just block each other You made it clear my opinion "doesn't matter" so whatever Sir your opinion has no bearing on my life.

If people want to help you fill your belly and pay your mortgage by working on guns, that's cool. You'll never get a cent from me or anyone else I know. Free Market economy and all that

Guys shooting .45 Long Colt through Uberti Dragoons and bragging about it , all like "I shoot .452 bullets, I cheat! HA!" Doesn't make this forum look like a joke at all though, right?

Can I see some pics of your cartridge converted Dragoons , again? That aren't supposed to be allowed here?

 

[45D]

Again, 45D...

I checked my pay stub to see if your opinion made a difference....nope it's still the same . We'll have to agree just not to care about each other or just block each other You made it clear my opinion "doesn't matter" so whatever Sir your opinion has no bearing on my life.

If people want to help you fill your belly and pay your mortgage by working on guns, that's cool. You'll never get a cent from me or anyone else I know. Free Market economy and all that

Guys shooting .45 Long Colt through Uberti Dragoons and bragging about it , all like "I shoot .452 bullets, I cheat! HA!" Doesn't make this forum look like a joke at all though, right?

Can I see some pics of your cartridge converted Dragoons , again? That aren't supposed to be allowed here?

Ummmmm . . . haven't posted any . . . so, you wouldn't have seen any. I haven't been posting about shooting 45C in Dragoons, it's 45acp in '60 Army's.

Maybe "reading" the posts would help you.
Anyway, like you say, what's it too ya?!
You use your guns just for "blasting" at paper.

 

[Stantheman86]

Ummmmm . . . haven't posted any . . . so, you wouldn't have seen any. I haven't been posting about shooting 45C in Dragoons, it's 45acp in '60 Army's.

Maybe "reading" the posts would help you.
Anyway, like you say, what's it too ya?!

It's not anything to me, I don't care what you do . You neither add nor subtract anything from my life, you're an internet forum stranger

Oh, my apologies, only .45 ACP in 60 Armies!! That's way more value added to this forum, I'm so sorry

I kinda stopped reading your posts a while back. You did offer a lot of information, technical advice and mechanical info but honestly I just find you too abrasive and annoying to take seriously. You're like the Uncle at every family gathering that's always too loud, tells you 10 times that you need a 3rd heating source in your home and secretly no one can stand.

You have , indeed , shown pics of Dragoons with cartridge cylinders but you know what, I don't care enough to even go back and forth about this mind numbing nonsense. Last time I went to your "business" website I got a Virus warning hahaha too fitting


From here on out you're gonna be a yellow box with "Content from this user blocked " so you can respond if you want but I'm tired of reading your "content "

 

[45D]

It's not anything to me, I don't care what you do . You neither add nor subtract anything from my life, you're an internet forum stranger

Oh, my apologies, only .45 ACP in 60 Armies!! That's way more value added to this forum, I'm so sorry

I kinda stopped reading your posts a while back. You did offer a lot of information, technical advice and mechanical info but honestly I just find you too abrasive and annoying to take seriously. You're like the Uncle at every family gathering that's always too loud, tells you 10 times that you need a 3rd heating source in your home and secretly no one can stand.

You have , indeed , shown pics of Dragoons with cartridge cylinders but you know what, I don't care enough to even go back and forth about this mind numbing nonsense. Last time I went to your "business" website I got a Virus warning hahaha too fitting


From here on out you're gonna be a yellow box with "Content from this user blocked " so you can respond if you want but I'm tired of reading your "content "

Like I give a rats
At least I have "content"

 

[TDM]

Well I guess I’ll just go on to bed now if nobody minds. Too much excitement here.

 

[45D]

Well I guess I’ll just go on to bed now if nobody minds. Too much excitement here.

I agree, when folks decide THEY know what's "good" and what's "bad" and start being belligerent about others posts, it gets a little silly.

 

[Stantheman86]

Well I guess I’ll just go on to bed now if nobody minds. Too much excitement here.

Some of us are trying to talk about shooting cool old guns and people gotta go and start calling me out on my use of tin foil

Geeeeeez

 

[jmull4609]

Wads are used by some but they are not necessary. They are used as a medium to hold lube.

... they are also used as a filler.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

The grease over the cylinder mouths is SUPPOSED to fly all over the arbore. That's where the gun needs lubrication. It also helps lubricate the bore to some extent.
Now, the old timers didn't do any of the stuff we do today because they shot until the gun was empty then used it as a club, they didn't have time to reload so lube and wads were irrelevant.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

I perused the articles on this site thoroughly while I was waiting for my first-ever BP revolver to arrive, a few years ago (link below). One of the subjects he discussed at length had to do with chain fires. He did extensive experimentation with loose caps, among other variables, to try to initiate chain fires. Through his experimentation, he discovered that sloppy powder management was responsible for chain fires, as the powder became "entrained" from the mouth of the chamber, between the ball and chamber, and then back to the main charge itself.

http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2Mobile.html
I only mention this because you brought up chain fires, and I thought you might find the article interesting. Actually, his whole blog page on black powder is very interesting--kind of hard to put down once you start.

Dabbing lube around the chamber mouths, as you mentioned, is what I also do, and I learned that technique from this guy's site. Rather that full-on wads, he recommended just cork disks to go between the charge and the ball so that the lube around the chamber mouths won't get pushed into the powder and contaminate it when you ram the ball home. I measured my chamber mouths with a caliper to get the right size of cork disks, and they fit very precisely, so they sit right inside the chamber mouths when I insert them, and they have to be pressed down onto the powder with a brass rod. I use the rammer, initially to make sure they don't get too tilted when they go in and then use the brass rod to gently tap them the rest of the way in.

Eight cylinders is the most I've ever fired in one session, and the fouling mitigation from dabbing lube around the chamber mouths before ramming the balls home does a great job at keeping the fouling soft. Up to the last shot, I don't get any sort of accuracy loss that makes me have to punch the bore.

I don't know who this guy is, but if you are using the correct size ball the "powder train" couldn't form--if indeed there is such a thing. While I haven't ever had a chain fire I always use a tight fitting ball and the correct size cap. I load the same way that Colt recommended back in the day. Bear in mind that this expert doesn't seem to know the difference between a ball and a slug.

 

[Stantheman86]

The grease over the cylinder mouths is SUPPOSED to fly all over the arbore. That's where the gun needs lubrication. It also helps lubricate the bore to some extent.
Now, the old timers didn't do any of the stuff we do today because they shot until the gun was empty then used it as a club, they didn't have time to reload so lube and wads were irrelevant.

This is one of the better comments I've seen on this

I see this in action whenever I shoot my Walkers and Dragoons. The Crisco /lard/tallow etc does not seal the chamber or prevent chain firing.....people have to let go of this reenactorism

It really is doing it's job by melting and blowing everywhere . Crisco kept my Walkers running by blowing all over the cylinder face, forcing cone, arbor and down the pipe to keep the bore from caking up.

It also makes cleaning way easier

The Rangers used Pork lard over the Walker chambers when they loaded them prior to combat..... just to mitigate the fouling from the big 60gr charges so they could get 6 more out of each gun . They weren't spreading stuff over any chambers under combat conditions

Some people find period photos of guys with loaded guns , like the picture of the Confederate Raider with his loaded 1858 Rem facing the camera , with bare bullets or balls in the chambers.....and I am fairly certain he didn't have any "wad" in there either. He'd have emptied that gun and pulled out another one.

 

[Crow Choker]

The grease over the cylinder mouths is SUPPOSED to fly all over the arbore. That's where the gun needs lubrication. It also helps lubricate the bore to some extent.
Now, the old timers didn't do any of the stuff we do today because they shot until the gun was empty then used it as a club, they didn't have time to reload so lube and wads were irrelevant.

I don't know Comfort-Numb, I never grease over the balls, haven't since sometime in the 90's when I started using lubed wads and never have a problem with my cylinder spinning on my C&B arbor. Back in the early days I used a lot of forgotten concoctions for arbor lubrication. Later I used some red grease that came in a small plunger that was a synthetic of some type. Switched over to white lithium grease around 30 some years ago that I could obtain locally and was cheaper. After a day of shooting the cylinder never binds, taking the barrel/cylinder off, the grease is still the same color as I applied. Only exception is the first 1/8" by the chamber mouths or so that has become a brownish color from residue. I add a very small dad on the cylinder ratchets also for lube, never a problem with any buildup. General consensus by most is to avoid petroleum based grease as it and black powder residue don't mix well.

Ref grease over the balls, I don't miss the days of greasy hands, greasy revolvers, or the extra step of greasing the balls. If a shooter has properly lubed his firearm, he doesn't need all of that liquid grease that previously was a semi-solid spread over the balls but was melted by the firing, heat and blow of the first couple of shots for lubrication and proper functioning of his revolver. There's no need for all that grease spread all over the front half of the revolver. A rag back in the early days of my percussion shooting necessitated one hanging from my belt to constantly wipe all the grease that got on my hands and all over everything. Forget to bring one and ya made sure the next time you went out it was there. Still do carry a rag, but it doesn't get the use it once did.

Clean up is clean up, I use hot water (if possible, but not scalding), Ballistol, and rags and brushes. Not any harder to clean from back in the day I greased the balls. The only pain is the chamber deep in the nipple area and the exterior nipple recesses of the cylinder. I take the nipples off, only way to really get them and the recesses clean. It's a pain doing so, but do it as its the only way to really get things clean. Out in the field I never do strip, if the bore does get any buildup, I carry a small wooden dowel I cut a slot in one end for a cleaning patch and give it a few swipes with a water/Ballistol mix.

 

[Magungo1066]

I was watching some YouTube black powder videos and they mentioned not needing patches or wads to shoot. They were loading balls so, I questioned this being a reasonable way to load. Or, perhaps they had some 'special' cylinder mod to support this?

Can you load without patches or wads in any revolver? Is this just a trick for plinking a lot of rounds?

TIA,
Sid

If you use a proper sized ball you do not need one of those lubed felt wads over the ball. There is nothing wrong with doing it but some people act as if you are insuring you blow your hands off if you don't use one. Now, if your ball isn't oversized and doesn't give you that nice "ring" of lead when you jam it home, that is another story.