No5s v No7s

[CoyoteJoe]

nod goes to 7s. I,ll go with multiple strikes over a gain in foot pounds any day :thumbsup:

I've often seen birds fall dead and when skinned I wondered what killed them, hit with several pellets, none of which were in the vitals. It does seem as though the shock of multiple pellet hits is proportional to the square of the number of pellets.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I too have killed birds with multiple hits from small shot, that did not penetrate. Birds do die from the shock of being hit. However, all those kills were with shots that were inside 30 yards. Beyond that you might break some feathers loose, but you will not kill the bird. That is why I am using #5 shot, and 1 1/4 oz in my 12 gauge shotgun. They will kill birds out to 35 yards in my cylinder bore gun, because they have the pellet energy at that range to do the job. I can work up comparison pellet energy figures from Lyman's Shotshell reloading book if someone is interested.

 

[Britsmoothy]

I am sure shot size has been cause for many a conversation for many many decades and I respect every body perspectives.
Now on a side line but kinder related I have managed to make some shot :shocked2: It is a little crude what with hollow pellets and some odd shapes but the average size is around our 8s of which I believe may be more like your 71/2s which is getting small by my standards even. Anyway I will try it as soon as I can and let you know what happens :hatsoff:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Sizing Shot follows the Rule of 17: Simply subtract the number of the shot from the number 17, and you get the diameter of the shot in hundredths of an inch.

#8 shot is .09" in diameter.( 17 - 8 = .09")

Conversely, if you measure a piece of shot that is unknown, as in your homemade shot, and it measures .09" inches, subtract that number from the number 17, and you get the shot " Size " assigned to it by the English system of measurement. 17 - 9 = 8.

BB shot is .18" in diameter. ( The BBs used in air rifles are .177" and you should never try to shoot the larger BBs in the smaller sized barrels. They get stuck, and ruin the barrels. ) BBB Steel shot is .19:", T Shot is .20"; #4 buck is .24".

As long as you remember the RULE OF 17, you can determine the correct " Size " of any pellet you cast or make.

Try tumbling those home made pellets in a case tumbler, by themselves to make them round and knock off any slag. Just don't leave them tumbling to long or you will have dust. If you have a mason jar, or even a mayonaise jar, or peanut butter jar, glass or plastic, you can put shot in one of those and spin them around as you watch TV. When your hands and fingers get tired, you are done. :rotf:

 

[Britsmoothy]

Thanks PV, that last tip is very interesting. Made another shot maker today! I,ll keep trying yet. I want to try the rough stuff on Saturday :hmm:

 

[Britsmoothy]

The other shot maker is better. I had it making shot yesterday and patterned it today. Compared to my loads with commercial round lead shot it is a little more patchy but still usefull :v All things considered as in it not being perfectly round and having little dimples I was quite impressed. I will make some up and it will come in one day for something I am sure. The thing that beats me is that with the home made shot the left barrel shoots to the left :shocked2: Everything is the same except the shot!!!!!!
Any ideas?

 

[Joel/Calgary]

... but the average size is around our 8s of which I believe may be more like your 71/2s which is getting small by my standards even.

As Paul explained, North American shot sizes are based on diameter and the "rule of 17" gives the size. AIUI, UK shot sizes are based on pellets-per-ounce weight specifications, and the intervals between shot sizes (and possibly the diameters) are not necessarily even thousandths or half-thousandths of an inch. They frequently run smaller than the corresponding US sizes, often about a nominal 1/2 or 1 size. The table I have shows UK#8 as approximately equivalent to US#8.5.

Joel

 

[Britsmoothy]

The 7,s I am using at the moment measure .102" or 2.4mm. What size is that for you ?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Using the Rule of 17, subtract 10 from 17 and you get the size number "7". Your shot is No. 7 shot here in the USA. #7 shot is rarely sold here, as the more common shot is #7 1/2, not #7. #7 started to be available several years ago, when it began to be loaded in the new 24 gram Olympic trap and skeet loads. Rather than produce two different products for a relatively small market, the ammo companies began to off the #7 shot size in their olympic shotgun shells, and as a direct result, #7 became available in 25 lb. bags for reloaders.

 

[Many Klatch]

Some years ago I started carrying a mixed load of shot in my shooting pouch. I have 7-1/2', 5's and a few buckshot all mixed together in one bag. When I load for shot I dump them all in indiscriminately. It seems to work.

Many Klatch

 

[Capt. Jas.]

What does combining buckshot and birdshot work for? Target shooting, hunting a particular animal?

 

[CoyoteJoe]

What does combining buckshot and birdshot work for? Target shooting, hunting a particular animal?

Yeah, really. The idea of mixing shot sizes is an old one, Remington even loads shotshells with two sizes of shot. I guess the thinking is like: "if I need #4s for duck and #8s for quail, why not just mix them and be set for anything". The obvious problem is you only have half a load of "the right size". If you really need the penetration of #4s then the #8s won't do anything at all and if you need the dense pattern of #8s then the #4s will count but you still won't have the dense pattern of a full load of #8s. If you just dump a mix into a shot pouch there is no telling what you'll get with any one load. Adding buckshot to the mix is totally ridiculous. Carrying a load of #4s in one barrel and #8s in the other is not a bad idea sometimes but mixing them in one load is never a good idea. Yes, it will kill some game, if you're close enough a handful of gravel will kill, but if you want to get the best out of your gun, better stick to one size and learn what it will do. :grin:

 

[Joel/Calgary]

The 7,s I am using at the moment measure .102" or 2.4mm. What size is that for you ?

Interesting - That is what I know as the traditional UK #6 - almost the same as US #7, as Paul said. This shot size comes up on the shotgun boards occasionally - Brit shooters saying this is the best size for grouse & such at 290±/oz, and North Americans grumbling about the difficulty in finding something between US #6 (.011" @ 220±/oz) and US #7.5 (.095" @ 340±/oz). I know there are or were different European (Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.) shot-size systems, but I cannot lay hands on my references on them at the moment.

Curiouser... I'm finding references to a "European" or "French/German" shot sizing that seem to be a metric-nearest-equivalent to the US one, but still cannot find other than passing references to differences from the Italian, Spanish, and Swedish shot sizes. It would appear you have the "European" #7s.

A good online comparison I've found is [url] http://www.griffinhowe.com/shot_size_chart.cfm[/url] If anyone finds a more comprehensive shot-size comparison table, it would be worth posting it.

Joel

 

[paulvallandigham]

Manny: The only way to understand why putting a bunch of shot down the barrel does NOTHING for patterns, is to understand how air resistence affects each " roundish " pellet both by pushing against the forward " edge " of the pellet, but then also against the sides of the pellets, forcing pellets apart.

Take 3 balloons, all the same size, and round, and in the quiet air of your living room, throw the ballows, together, slowly; then moderately; and then as fast as you can throw an overhand pitched baseball. You will find that as more and more force is applied to move the balloons forward through the air, the quicker they separate, and that if you try to throw them too fast, they actually go less distance. Now, repeat this experience with 3 balloons, all round, but of different diameters, or sizes. You will see that even at modest and slow velocities, the shot spreads quicker than it does when the balloons are the same size. The largest balloon may stay the course, and go the furthest, but both of the smaller ballons will spread out further.

This is what is taking place when shotgun pellets are fired into the air. If you have a widely divergent sizing of pellets, like #4 and #8, the 4s will maintain their pellet energy and bump the smaller #8 shot out of the way, as the #8 shot slows down quicker. But that energy used to bump #8 shot out of the way will also change the path of the #4 pellets, too, and they will spread faster, or lose speed faster than if they were fired with just other #4 pellets.

If you are push this multiple-sized shot load above the sound barrier, ( 1100 fps) the smaller shot will drop below the sound barrier faster than the #4, and fast enough that it will be BUMPING the #4 shot as it does, and causing air currents to hit the #4 pellets from several directions, opening up the #4 shot pattern even more. All the shot will come down through the sound barrier within the first 20 yards, so you are not going to need to shoot at 30 or 40 yards to see these results.

Only by pushing the pellets through the air at very slow speeds can you keep them together for any kind of pattern much beyond 20 feet. If you do that there will not be enough energy in the smaller pellets to do anything to game but wound them, at best.

Bob Brister wrote a monumental work on the Shotgun, " Shotgunning: The Art and the Science ", published in 1976, by Winchester Press. Bob had the use of Winchester Western Ammo facilities at Alton, Illinois to do test patterns, and this clasic work is still as relevant today as it was back then. Winchester did not tell Bob what to do; they listened to what Bob told them with his testing results. It is not likely to be a testing process that will ever be repeated, because of the time and cost. However, it has been the basis for computer simulation programs that are used by other companies in the industry, even now.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

I miss old Brister! Fine fellow and always wanting to help out the youngsters.

 

[FPDoc]

"Shotgunning: The Art and the Science by Bob Brister". Nine available from $15 on Amazon (as of now). Might be a good read.

 

[roundball]

Actually duplex loads have been around for a long time and are built for an intended purpose..and that purpose of course is not a half a load for one purpose and a half a load for another purpose.

Duplex Turkey loads of #4's & #6s are an excellent example of providing improved killing patterns for turkey head size targets, with the larger heavier #4s staying together longer in a tighter cluster for extended range on a small target...only needing 1 or 2 of those #4s to reach a distant turkey head and get the job done.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Buckshot and birdshot do not a good load make. :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

A Duplex load so constructed is a far cry from throwing " a bunch of various sized shot" down the barrel. As was mentioned in another post, about buck and ball, the pattern is slightly better if the ball is placed on top of, or in front of the buck shot, as it will soon leave the buckshot behind. The Duplex loads with the #4 and #6 shot were loaded with the #4 shot on top.

With a full choked barrel, particularly those with a long tapered throat ahead of the chamber, tight groups sufficient to kill turkeys at 45 yards and further were possible with these loads. The idea was that if the #4 missed due to a pointing error, the #6 shot would hit the bird hard enough to anchor it for a follow up shot, if needed. Since a pointing error would tend to put the outside ring of shot on the target, it was likely that several #6 pellets would hit the head and neck, and kill the turkey.

Those cartridges are quite a bit different than loading a cylinger bore ML shotgun, of any gauge.Without the plastic shot cup to protect the shot pellets, and the choke to constrict both size shots so that they leave the barrel pretty much at the same time, its impossible to produce those same kind of patterns in a ML shotgun with an cylinder bore. If you shorten the yardage to 25 yards, you may be able to get close in some guns, with some loads.

 

[roundball]

Buckshot and birdshot do not a good load make. :grin:

I couldn't disagree based on my personal experience but I wasn't talking about buckshot & birdshot...I was clarifying that there are valid duplex loads that achieve intended results