Non-Firing replica 1766 Charleville Infantry Musket

[BEP]

I've heard that "Nobody ever changed anyone else's mind in an argument on an internet forum". This thread would seem to support that statement.

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

Where do veterans Arms come from

Veteran Arms is in Ga. however, all their guns are made in India. Semper Fi.

 

[fireman1]

I've heard that "Nobody ever changed anyone else's mind in an argument on an internet forum". This thread would seem to support that statement.

I think threads like this and others educate guys. It lets them make an informed decision. They may not post but just watch and learn.

 

[jd945043]

People engaging in the Indian musket debate.


Bobby Hoyt did tell me about an Indian barrel he refused to work on because the breech wasn’t threaded correctly. He said there were gas leaks evident by burn marks in the threads. He also said there was an issue with how it was tapered.

I have to be honest I don’t fully understand how a barrels taper could affect its integrity, he said it had something to do with it being too thick in the middle and muzzle and too thin in the breech, and that the pressure isn’t evenly distributed when its fired.

He ended up making a new barrel for the gun owner.

Well, I’ve seen worse stocks made of birch, oak and mahogany. While teak is not ideal, it can have a pleasant grain to it, however the Indian gun dealers are not trying to use quality cuts of wood, they’re using surplus wood that is cheap.

I’ve seen some Indian stocks from Veteran arms that looked like they were dry rotted, so brittle that it literally shattered like glass. One Springfield and a one bess.

As for pedersoli guns and their inletting, iv’e seen some with some over cut parts, i do own one with a slightly over cut tang inlet, i remedied that with epoxy bedding and moving the barrel back.

I’ve also defarbed many pedersoli guns, reworking stocks and removing manufactures markings even restocked them at the customer’s request for a more historical accurate pattern.

Otherwise the mechanical properties of pedersoli muskets are unmatched by Indian made arms. Their locks are far better, made with higher quality parts, and appropriately conditioned. I’ve only had to reharden one pedersoli frizzen in 10 years and and it saw an incredible amount of use. Pedersoli even discloses this on their website that frizzens will deprecate with use.
Their barrels are deep drilled from 4150 bar stock, which i believe is the highest quality gun BP barrels on the market today. They are superior to barrels made in the USA with 12L14 steel or 8620 steel or even British en28 or en42.

WOW you seem to be on the cult of Pedersoli. Jesus Christ couldn't make a better Gun in your opinion. Dude For what you pay Pedersoli is manure. For what they're charging the customer should be getting a gun that never needed to have anything done to it. But according to myself and other's lives here that's not the case.

 

[FlinterNick]

Just worked on an Indian made charleville in my shop.

Had a jag stuck in the breech.

So in short, the breech is threaded about two inches two long, there’s an inch of exposed threads and to boot, the barrel is not shouldered against the face of the breech plug, and the breech plus has very shallow threads.

It is literally just a straight pipe that is tapered.

This was a middlesex musket, this is absolutely not correct.

I’ve seen original Charleville barrels that were made better.

 

[springfield art]

Of course the Originals were made better. The QC at the factories was top-notch for the day, 18th C. Good that you posted what you've seen!

 

[ColonialRifleSmith]

WOW you seem to be on the cult of Pedersoli. Jesus Christ couldn't make a better Gun in your opinion. Dude For what you pay Pedersoli is manure. For what they're charging the customer should be getting a gun that never needed to have anything done to it. But according to myself and other's lives here that's not the case.

Don't let him troll you. He's one of the worst trolls on this forum. Semper Fi.

 

[FlinterNick]

Of course the Originals were made better. The QC at the factories was top-notch for the day, 18th C. Good that you posted what you've seen!

Having exposed threads in the breech with a breech that isn’t shouldered would make any barrel maker in the USA or Europe questions its integrity. As far as safety is concerned, overloading this gun with a patched round. Ball would be unwise for a few reasons.

1. The exposed threads in the breech would keep the ball from meting full seated down, this would more than likely cause an issue such as a bulge or something even potentially worse.

2. The exposed threads aware about an inch long and corrosion in them is built up with significant pitting, not exactly where you want an issue.

3. Jags and cleaning material will continue to get lodged in the breech with the exposed threads making it difficult to remove these problems.

I’ve seen a few Indian barrels made this way, it’s for sure, the wrong way to make a BP gun barrel.

When FYI loyalist arms gets barrels made this way to sell them with a caveat that they can only fire blanks.

 

[FlinterNick]

Don't let him troll you. He's one of the worst trolls on this forum. Semper Fi.

Ok, can you answer why a black powder gun barrel by pedersoli, rice, green mountain, Hoyt or Colerain have breech plugs that are shouldered to the inside of the bore?

Why would having exposed threads in the breech be a problem? Or is it ok to have exposed threads in a breech ?

 

[maillemaker]

Ok, can you answer why a black powder gun barrel by pedersoli, rice, green mountain, Hoyt or Colerain have breech plugs that are shouldered to the inside of the bore?

Why would having exposed threads in the breech be a problem? Or is it ok to have exposed threads in a breech ?

He was agreeing with you, FlinterNick.

 

[ZUG]

I totally agree with Flinternick on the way the India made muskets are breached. Here is a picture of a Brown Bess from them with the breach plug removed. Two issues stand out to me and the first is the length of the threads cut into the barrel and a approx. 3/8" X 0.350" deep hole in the breach plug (see picture attached). Both of these issues are BAD. The breach plug and barrel threads are cut to about 60% depth and rough. The plug does shoulder up to the end of the barrel tightly but there is no shoulder for the plug to seal off the inside of the barrel/plug interface. Any excess threads in front of the breach plug WILL collect burnt powder and cause corrosion to form and catch a cleaning patch. I purchased a Brown Bess from Access Heritage because I wanted more of a wall hanger and a seldom shooter and the price was right for my pocketbook. If I was going for a shooter I would spend the money for a Pedersoli Brown Bess.

I could do nothing about the poor threads in the barrel or the breach plug but I could do something about that unnecessary hole in the breach plug. I made up a steel plug that was 0.0005" over diameter of the hole in the breach plug and 0.350" long. I heated up the breach plug and forced my steel plug into the breach plug for a secure tight fit. You will notice in my picture that the breach plug face is concave not flat. The depth of the concavity is approximately 1/16 + of an inch. I ground off this excess material to produce a flat face on the breach plug. This also moved the breach face to the rear 1/16"+ from the touch hole location which is center punched in the barrel.

I have no fear on shooting this gun but I will be pulling the breach plug and clean the barrel threads thoroughly if I shoot it a lot. Also I would use light loads not full-bore loads in these guns. Your mileage may vary

 

[FlinterNick]

I totally agree with Flinternick on the way the India made muskets are breached. Here is a picture of a Brown Bess from them with the breach plug removed. Two issues stand out to me and the first is the length of the threads cut into the barrel and a approx. 3/8" X 0.350" deep hole in the breach plug (see picture attached). Both of these issues are BAD. The breach plug and barrel threads are cut to about 60% depth and rough. The plug does shoulder up to the end of the barrel tightly but there is no shoulder for the plug to seal off the inside of the barrel/plug interface. Any excess threads in front of the breach plug WILL collect burnt powder and cause corrosion to form and catch a cleaning patch. I purchased a Brown Bess from Access Heritage because I wanted more of a wall hanger and a seldom shooter and the price was right for my pocketbook. If I was going for a shooter I would spend the money for a Pedersoli Brown Bess.

I could do nothing about the poor threads in the barrel or the breach plug but I could do something about that unnecessary hole in the breach plug. I made up a steel plug that was 0.0005" over diameter of the hole in the breach plug and 0.350" long. I heated up the breach plug and forced my steel plug into the breach plug for a secure tight fit. You will notice in my picture that the breach plug face is concave not flat. The depth of the concavity is approximately 1/16 + of an inch. I ground off this excess material to produce a flat face on the breach plug. This also moved the breach face to the rear 1/16"+ from the touch hole location which is center punched in the barrel.

I have no fear on shooting this gun but I will be pulling the breach plug and clean the barrel threads thoroughly if I shoot it a lot. Also I would use light loads not full-bore loads in these guns. Your mileage may varyView attachment 243633

Its absolutely below any standard that would be applied to a BP firearm in terms of engineering quality.

The breechplug can’t be seated to the bore for a gas tight fit and a tang that is flanged rather than shouldered and bottom taped, is unacceptable.

This Charleville Barrel I worked on, i messaged the owner to let him know my thoughts about lining it and getting a better quality breech plug.

The exposed threads alone is a major problem that already has caused problems for this owner.

I honestly can’t say these are meant to be real guns after seeing this.

Loyalist arms’ muskets are not made this way.

Your advice on keep the loads mild is very correct, i advised only blanks. And to do a deep cleaning after each shooting or reenactment.