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Hey Mike,

I wouldn't hit the panick button just yet. I haven't made any final decisions and don't know when I will.

But I think it is important to remember purchases are utlimately personal decisions - they can only be deemed right or wrong based on whether they satisfy the purchaser.

That said, I realize my posts are akin to thinking out loud, so please bear with me as I flush this thing out.

Take care,
john
 
But I think it is important to remember purchases are utlimately personal decisions - they can only be deemed right or wrong based on whether they satisfy the purchaser.
Exactly. Every one has a level of authenticity that they are comfortable playing the game at. We all have to figure out what works best for us as individuals, and go with that. At a certain point all of us end up saying "that's plenty close enough" and leave it at that. :thumbsup:
 
Just a note to all on this post. Thanks for the very interesting dicussion. This is better than reading a good book about the subject. Again, thanks to all of you for my new-found knowledge....at your expense. :haha:
 
Mike Brooks said:
But I think it is important to remember purchases are utlimately personal decisions - they can only be deemed right or wrong based on whether they satisfy the purchaser.
Exactly. Every one has a level of authenticity that they are comfortable playing the game at. We all have to figure out what works best for us as individuals, and go with that. At a certain point all of us end up saying "that's plenty close enough" and leave it at that. :thumbsup:

The concept that "nobody seems to be able to tell me what is the correct gun for me, and it is very exasperating and disappointing" is certainly put to rest. The guy in the mirror was the one who seemed to have all the answers needed. The answer? "The gun I decide on."
 
rich pierce said:
Mike Brooks said:
But I think it is important to remember purchases are utlimately personal decisions - they can only be deemed right or wrong based on whether they satisfy the purchaser.
Exactly. Every one has a level of authenticity that they are comfortable playing the game at. We all have to figure out what works best for us as individuals, and go with that. At a certain point all of us end up saying "that's plenty close enough" and leave it at that. :thumbsup:

The concept that "nobody seems to be able to tell me what is the correct gun for me, and it is very exasperating and disappointing" is certainly put to rest. The guy in the mirror was the one who seemed to have all the answers needed. The answer? "The gun I decide on."


I guess, if this was intended for me, I would say that the more I read the more I realize that an authentic gun can be several different types.

English gentry - one gun

An English farmer - another gun

A Dutch Merchant who left Albany and is living in the Mohawk Valley - another gun

Someone who moved from Virginia to the Mohawk Valley - another gun

A gun intended for trade - another gun

A gun acquired as spoils of borderland battles - another gun

A German farmers gun - another gun

A gun that fell into disrepair and was therefore altered - another gun

So, I'm feeling pretty good about my journey and am acquiring knowledge as I said I would.

Thanks,
john
 
Dr. I bet if you purchased a kit and put it together and finished it all by yourself...you'd be the happiest. I haven't done it but I dream about it sometimes...I have made and sewed two leather bags to carry my shot and grease and rags and powder flask and possibiles. Made them out of leather gloves that I picked up off the highways. I have also made me a "hawk" and a throwing knife. I have a smooth rifle also, but I know for sure that it won't pass the muster. That's ok. I just can't wait to go to a camp meeting or re-inactment but if I never do...I'm glad and thankful for the "keepers of the flame". Hope you find what you are looking for. Thanks for inspiring the informed conveyance of fact and speculation and for exciting the impetus to continue the struggle for answers and understanding.... :snore:
 
Mike Roberts said:
DrTimBoone said:
Sachem, here is a fellow that might help you out. his gun and kit are all displayed and historically documented for the Mohawk River area during the period of Johnson. pretty impressive stuff.... [url] http://www.ccnnwebdesign.com/paladin/document.htm[/url] :hatsoff:

Just a note: a year or two ago this same fellow was toting a Pedersoli Kentucky for the same persona, ...

He's also a member here.
[url] http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showuser.php?uid/7782[/url]/
 
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Hey Mike, I believe I said on another thread somewhere that I thought the museum gun was a restock and cited the gun in the Essex Peabody as a similar and probably earlier composite/restock gun. See Moller Vol.I PP. 63-64. I agree with you completely here and I have always been puzzled by the O'Connor Wilson gun.Then when Dave stated that he saw a gun in a private collection very close to it, I was even more puzzled. The Essex Peabody gun is,I'm sure, a restock with it's maple stock but the original gun with it's 54" bbl and the three screw flintlock and dog catch probably dated to the first quarter of the 18th century since the lock is signed T.{Thomas} Green who worked in London Ca.1697-1728.It's truly confusin ain't it?
Tom
 
Okwaho said:
Hey Mike, I believe I said on another thread somewhere that I thought the museum gun was a restock and cited the gun in the Essex Peabody as a similar and probably earlier composite/restock gun. See Moller Vol.I PP. 63-64. I agree with you completely here and I have always been puzzled by the O'Connor Wilson gun.Then when Dave stated that he saw a gun in a private collection very close to it, I was even more puzzled. The Essex Peabody gun is,I'm sure, a restock with it's maple stock but the original gun with it's 54" bbl and the three screw flintlock and dog catch probably dated to the first quarter of the 18th century since the lock is signed T.{Thomas} Green who worked in London Ca.1697-1728.It's truly confusin ain't it?
Tom

Tom, I associate the wiggly side plate on the fur trade museum gun with quasi military/utility guns of about the date you suggested, 1700-1715. They may have been used on trade grade guns too, but I'm not sure if anybody knows what a English trade type gun of the 1700-1715 era looks like.
The O'Conner gun..... 'tis truely an odd duck... and you know I know something about ducks. :winking: Obviously this style of gun was made in some number as they show up in several archeological digs, and there are a few surviving examples. Most interesting to note that when the parts show up underground they are in post F&I war sites. I have wondered if the French alied natives didn't care for the english styled trade guns and the english were just catering to the new market of Frenchie fied natives? The French influenced natives might have thought the "G" type guns pure crapola and stuck a french fusil detrait in some English indian agent's face and said "this is how guns are supposed to look" . Possibly this french gun eventually made it to england where it was copied "english fashion" by copying the buttplate and buttstock shape. The only difference in this and other english trade guns is the buttstock architecture and the butt plate. Everything else on it is purely English. I've never looked hard enough, but I wonder if the digs where fragments of this gun are found are found only in areas where the french were in control during the F&I war? HHMMMM..... :hmm:
 
Mike I think maybe you hit on something. I wonder if there were natives who especially liked the architecture of the French guns but didn't care for the look of the English offering (sort of like the Ford/Chevy thing today) and the English where trying to satisfy the customer.
A friend of mine George Carroll who is a professor of history at Urbana College and a good student of Native American culture in the 18th century feels that the fur trade made the Indians the movers and shakers rather than the helpless victims of the whims of the suppliers of trade goods. They dictated what they did and didn't want and the French and English were moved to supply those demands and sway allegiances.

Regards, Dave
 
Dave,I'm astounded here.You not only admit that you know George but you give credence to him. :bow: Be sure and tell him I said hello and will see him at Norris and he and I can pursue this matter further.I think Mike has raised an interesting point here.I also think that George's thinking is very credible here.however,I think that the English Carolina/Type G guns were more likely the predominant trade guns in the Southeast since that was the area controlled by the English in the 18th century and where their guns were still favored after the Revolution.The French,on the other hand still controlled the Mississippi River Valley and French goods were still coming in until after the Louisiana purchase.I realize that there was a great deal of overlapping here and I think the Natives in the Mississippi River Valley may well have influenced the English as to the appearance of guns offered to them in trade.There is a very interesting quote on the comparative merits of English and Spanish guns:"3.In 1789,a chief of the Creeks had this to say about the relative merits od the guns being supplied{Caughy,1938,P.217};he wanted guns"...not such as have been usually furnished us[by the Spanish]which besides being too small in the bore,burst after a few discharges,but English Trading Guns which are good and will last more than two years in constant use...","18th Century English Trade Guns in the South,or The Carolina Gun,It's Time and Place in History", Lee Burke 1991,unpublished.
See also {cited above} John W. Caughey,"Mc Gillivray of the Creeks'{1938}P.217
It may well have been that the Natives wanted the best of all worlds ie; French gun appearance and English gun functional quality.I don't know whether he's on this board but Ben Coogle has been down the road of Carolina/Type G guns and can offer his thoughts on the matter.This is really a great area of discussion.
Tom Patton
 
Okwaho
That is exactly what I'm thinking! The NAs wanted a Frenchy looking gun with English function and at the English price.
I was looking at Hamilton's "Colonial Frontier Guns" again last night and noticed on pg 70 or 71 where he is describing the English gun parts that feature the same style of butt plate as was used on O'Conner gun he mentions he had observed two of those guns, Which he calls Northwest guns, one of which I assume would be the O'Conner gun and now I wonder if the other may have been the piece I saw and handled.
I also noted on those two pages two cast brass trigger guards found in conjunction with the buttplates and wonder if anyone knows of a complete gun using that butt plate and trigger guard rather than the more common Northwest type trigger guard as seen on the O'Conner gun.

George is a wonderful guy, I have learned a lot from him and he has helped to hook me up with some of the better pieces in my collection.

Regards, Dave
 

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