Noone Is Authentic!

[john1964]

Thanks everyone,

Sorry things got off track there. Some times things take on a life of their own. Again, my apologies.

I have been taking a bit with various folks including Jim Chambers. Seems his "Smooth Rifle" might be a good choice.

So thanks Mike Brooks, Tom Patton, and all who contibuted to an at times rocky thread. I definitely think I have enough here to narrow down my choices.

Thanks again, and sincere apologies to all.

Take care,
john

 

[Pittsburghunter]

Where is the tux and cat?

 

[Mike Brooks]

I have been taking a bit with various folks including Jim Chambers. Seems his "Smooth Rifle" might be a good choice.

Well, there ya go, you couldn't have talked to a more qualified person and you made an excellent choice of guns. He didn't happen to mention my name when you asked him who he might recommend to put something like that put together did he? :blah: :grin:
The muzzleloading business is a very small world. :haha:

 

[Zonie]

Hopefully, when you find the answers, you will be good enough to post them here so that we all may learn from your efforts.

 

[Okwaho]

Thanks everyone,




I have been taking a bit with various folks including Jim Chambers. Seems his "Smooth Rifle" might be a good choice.


I think that the smooth rifle and the Mark Silver rifle would be two of my favorite guns.Both of them are based on guns found in Shumway's Rifles Of Colonial America Vol.II and are excellent choices.You can rely on Jim and Barbie to do right by you.These guns will not be cheap but when you are getting a Cadillac you shouldn't expect to pay the price of a Chevy. Now you can start thinking about a builder to assemble the gun and add a patch box and whatever other bells and whistles you might want.
Good luck
Tom Patton

 

[DrTimboone]

Appreciate your apology to everyone. You may find you even like it around here. look forward to hearing about the progress on your quest.

Peace

 

[rich pierce]

There were dozens of good replies and even some helpful ones to the oddly titled first post, "who makes?" More than anyone should expect to get for free, let alone demand.

 

[RC]

Okay guys, I was with ya for while and learnin along the way till ya all got to that one[url] gun..thinkin[/url] ya called it "Patience of Saints" said there alot you guys had some,,, now is that a rifle?,smoothbore? xactly what caliber?? sounds like somethin i need..how come ya all got more than one?? jes wonderin...RC

 

[rich pierce]

There is no documentation that I can find of a settler in the Mohawk Valley in the time of Sir William Johnson using a rifle. There are no 100% certain examples of NY-derived rifles attributed to this period, as the rifle-built guns that may be from that are were not signed and can't be assigned to a date and place. There are 2 candidates and maybe 3 for rifle-built guns from NY state and specifically the Mohawk Valley area. In Muzzle Blasts many years ago Shumway illustrated a rifle that was out of Oswego and may have been made there, that had features and a lock that would probably date it to the 1770s. It probably had no patchbox originally, although it currently has an odd one. Butt was 2" and tall, the stock was maple, the decoration was modest, and the cheekpiece did not look particularly Germanic. There is also a rifle-built gun that was illustrated in both Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America and in Kindig's Kentucky Rifles of the Golden Age that is purported to have come from the Mohawk Valley and is believed to be pre-Revolutionary. It has unusual styling. On this gun the wrist is unusually long, the comb very short, and the wrist extends, English style, through the buttstock. I think (books not here) that it has a fowler-style guard, flat to the wrist and used barrel keys, not pins, and has a short barrel.

There is some archeological evidence that the Seneca in western NY state may have been using rifles by the 1740s but they were particularly far-ranging and had influence and throughout Ohio and all the way to Illinois in the west. The Iroquois also exerted great influence over the Delaware and lorded it over the Pennsylvania tribes and may have been getting rifles from Pennsylvania makers via the Susquehana.

 

While the Chambers smoothrifle is a good choice, in general, it does not fit your original criteria very well. You originally seemed to be looking for a F&I War period gun (or earlier) native to a New York area. The Chambers smooth rifle is a Lancaster (PA) gun of the very end to post F&I War era. Nonetheless, I am sure you will enjoy shooting it. It is a fine looking model, too.

 

[john1964]

Well,

I haven't purchased anything yet and will likely continue to do further research. I have every confidence I will be able to find what I am looking for, even if that evolves over time.

A student of history realizes that much of what happened in the colonies was heavily documented, even from the earliest settlements. So it is a matter of knowing where to look and what to look for.

Take care,
john

 

[Twisted_1in66]

Probably more and more people are being turned away due to the commercialization of things too.
Gun kits and the parts seem really high especially for plain everyday oak stocks so a guy builds his own gun and uses a cheap maple stock and probably gets knocked for it and not praised for building his own and keeping the faith of doing it yourself.
Just a thought.

In most cases, the maple stock would be accurate for an 18th century longrifle because that's what was available at the time in the northeast and in PA where so many of the guns of the era were made. I believe walnut was also available but was not used as often. High-grade maple is expensive, and even low-grade maple isn't cheap.

--------------------------------------
Twisted_1in66 :thumbsup:

 

Well,

I haven't purchased anything yet and will likely continue to do further research. I have every confidence I will be able to find what I am looking for, even if that evolves over time.

A student of history realizes that much of what happened in the colonies was heavily documented, even from the earliest settlements. So it is a matter of knowing where to look and what to look for.

Take care,
john

I fear that you will be disappointed if you think that firearms types are well documented in general and especially for specific areas and times. I apllaud your willingness to do the research--alot of us have--but you need to see for yourself. Mark Baker (Sons of the Trackless Forest, an outgrowth of his grad thesis in history, and other works)once wrote that he had looked through thousands of pages of references--and he is a thorough researcher--looking in vain for a single description of a rifle or gun used by the market hunters and Longhunters (generally speaking between 1760-1775). They are listed in many accounts, but simply as "rifle-guns", "guns"or "rifles", sometimes differentiated by cost into plain guns or fancier guns ("fine rifle-gun"). The surviving guns are very rarely dated--and many that are have fake dates put on them much later by collectors/dealers. Military guns are better documented

 

[john1964]

Perhaps so.

But then I guess buying a rifle with generally accepted features of a period would make it authentic and the best anyone can really hope for. That's O.K. too.

Thanks again,
john

 

[rich pierce]

Hopefully that approach will work for you- but as I mentioned above, there is no documented use yet come to light of rifle use by settlers or militia or anyone else in the eastern Mohawk Valley before the Revolutionary War.

 

[john1964]

No matter Rich. I'm sure it will all work out in the end.

Thanks,
john

 

[loophole]

Rich, I'm not nearly the historian some of y'all are, but I wonder whether a rifle would not have been a very rare thing in NY in this era. The accounts of Morgan's riflemen at Boston suggest that the rifle was a real novelty to colonists north of Pensylvania. Furthermore, while I am sure the rules were more honored in the breach than in the observance, militia weapons and accoutrements were prescribed by regulations, and those I've seen called for a military-type weapon.

 

[rich pierce]

I think you may be correct. Many folks never got far from the place of their birth except in times of war, and then were exposed to things that amazed them, such as the accuracy of Morgan's riflemen. Certainly many Revolutionary War soldiers from New England had never seen riflemen shoot before the Revolutionary War, and were amazed.

The low number of colonial era rifles ever found in eastern NY state suggests that there was little production or use there at that time. Because of his position as Superintendent of Indian Affairs Sir William Johnson traveled at least as far as the Carolinas in the South, well into the Illinois country in the west and up into what is now Michigan in the north. He would have been very familiar with all arms carried by Europeans and natives throughout the colonies. But it seems that the gentry of that time who were English- even the self-made gentry like Sir William- favored English arms, and an English-made officer's fusil would be a good choice for such a person, just as Washington and southern gentry would carry.

Being from that area, I always hoped that the Palatine Germans who settled in the Mohawk Valley between Canajoharie and Herkimer would include some riflesmiths but there is no evidence for that. They were generally very poor folk when they arrived, having used up all their assets and needing in many cases to indenture themselves, and could not likely afford the tools anyway if they were skilled in the art.

But it's a moot point for the sake of this discussion. I am gathering parts for a fowler of Dutch styling such as was used in the area before the Revolution, as my Dutch ancestors settled in Schenectady when it was founded. There's a lot of fascinating history in that area.

 

[dlemaster]

I have a copy of the portrait of Sir William Johnson by Benjamin West. It's the one where he is seated with the Indian standing behind his right shoulder. If you look closely at the gun it certainly appears to be a rifle. It has a square toe and a relatively short barrel. The portrait was done in 1772 if I remember correctly.
I know that some will argue with using portraits as proof of clothing or artifacts used, but since so many of the artifacts that appear in West's paintings have shown up in his collection I believe it should carry some weight. Also Johnson was very wealthy at that time and pretty astute so I think it is entirely likely he may have owned a rifle, but that is not to say they would have been very common in New York.

Regards, Dave

 

Rich, interesting that you should mention Washington as an English fusil/folwer user--no doubt he was--but there is also a record that he bought a rifle during the F&I War! It seems from the records that rifles were relatively common in the middle colonies (PA_MD_VA_NCAR)by the F&I War. I have seen records of rifles in VA as early as the later 1600s!!! But everyone is probably correct that smoothbores were prevalent in New York and New England. In fact smoothies probably outnumbered rifles throughout the colonies and would be a good choice in any of them. Gussler has estimated the ratio of smoothbores to rifles at 2:1 (I assume in his beloved VA region). Wish he'd finish that darned book!