NorthStar Canoe Gun

[Le Grand]

Apples and oranges. 1830's is WAY late for the flintlock period and way later than the period of the guns that are being sold as stubby guns by today's dealers, with the exception of NSW.
If you're going to be PC and walk around with a stubby gun you better be doing NDN and doing a western impression

Well now, I'm really pleased to see that you finally agree that the NSW Canoe Gun is PC. We ain't all Natty Bumpos. For me the 1830s out West is just where I "throw my blankets." And having a short NW gun that was shortened for or by an NDN, then traded or taken away from that NDN is fine with me. And the name "Canoe Gun" actually really shines. Out in western Montana and further west, where that was HBC country before we nearly went to war with England again in the late 1840s, the canoe was an important mode of transporation for both folks and freight.
Laffindog deserves that recognition, he's one fine guy. I've shaken hands with him more than once but I don't look forward to shaking hands with you.
And about my name, Le Grand is a name I carry with certain pride and if you can't respect that you'd never have any respect for me by whatever handle. You can go on calling me "Mugwamp Dingleberry" if it pleases you. In a way that reminds me of Bill Large. He was some, and he pinned handles on his friends too. One of the best remembered was Dinglehoofer. But when he tagged and hombre with a nickname, he didn't throw it in the dust, mixed with slur and slander. No, you ain't no Bill Large.
And how would another name give you any clue to experience? You can tell which one of us has the most experience just by reading the numbers. Wow! You've got nearly 5,000 hits on this site while I have only 500. That's a big difference and yet you joined this sight just about 8 months before I did. All that experience really shows is how you've been talking a lot when you probably should have been listening. The only thing you've said about yourself that reall sticks in my mind is how you can't hit jack-manure. If you really have vast experience, you sure have a half-vast way of saying so.
And that fellow who ckecked in to this thread but admitted how he was sad for doing so. You slurred him too by saying he was just probably some guy with a Canoe Gun, or something like that. He might have just been interested and wanted to read some notes about the canoe guns but he sure got no help here. You can take credit for that and you'll probably want to.
Let me give you credit for one more thing. I don't have a NSW canoe gun but I'm going to get one. You and tell Laffindog that you sold me on getting one, for sure.
Now, I won't be contributing here very much but I'll probably continue reading now and then. If you want to call my attention to anything, just mention Mugwamp Dingleberry, I'll know who you're talking about.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Still don't have a clue who you are and untill I do won't put alot of stock in what you have to say. :v No big deal to me one way or another. As for what you think of me that's fine as I have recently been called "Boorish" and am quite proud of the title. :grin: Your not likely to beat that.... :haha:
Why are you so frightened for anyone here to know who you are? :idunno:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Ah, TP Hearn.....had to check your profile to find out who you actually are. Another guy that has done his homework and I have alot of respect for. :thumbsup:

 

[Va.Manuf.06]

:grin: Thanks Mike, the feeling is mutual.

My place of interest is the Shenandoah Valley west to the Ohio River in the period of 1720 - 1790 and short guns just didn't show up there and then, at least not until after at least 1865 so for me they just don't exist. (Or they are damaged so badly as to be nearly useless.... :idunno: )

 

[DanChamberlain]

"Ah, TP Hearn.....had to check your profile to find out who you actually are. Another guy that has done his homework and I have alot of respect for."

Imagine that.

Dan

 

[Ed Oamar]

Not a canoe gun but if you are around Michigan in 1763 you could find a blanket gun. :grin:

 

[tg]

"Not a canoe gun but if you are around Michigan in 1763 you could find a blanket gun."

Yes and possibly just one, tucked under a NDN's blanket.

 

[DanChamberlain]

I want a swivel gun...that I can mount on my canoe!

Dan

 

[Rod Lassey]

*sigh*

I've posted this before on this forum, but here goes again. The following is a listing of the NW guns purchased by Pierre Chouteau Jr. & Co., for the Upper Missouri trade. Note the barrel lengths.

1850
W. Chance Son & Co., Birmingham
160--36 inch Barrels
110--42"
10---48"
Schuckard & Gebhard [importers],
Belgium guns
60--30 inch barrels
60--33"
60--36"
40--42"
English guns
300--30"
200--33"
200--36"

1851
W. Chance son & Co.
120--30"
170--33"
230--36"
40---42"
30---48"
Edw. K. Tryon, Philadelphia
47--30"
3---36"

1852
W. Chance Son & Co.
150--30"
150--33"
250--36"
30---39"
40---42"
30---48"

1853
W. Chance Son & Co.
60--30"
50--33"
90--36"
20--39"

1854
W. Chance Son & Co.
150--30"
150--33"
180--36"
80---39"
40---42"

1855
W. Chance Son & Co.
150--30"
150--33"
120--36"
20---42"

The above is from Connor, "Success in the Fur Trade". He took it from the microfilm of the PCJ&Co. records. Notice that the 30" and 33" barrels get increasingly popular over the five years, while the 42" barrels are ordered less and less. It's very surprising that the 48" barrels were still available as late as 1852.

Now, as for resons why those barrels were shortened even further:

"When running buffaloes the hunters do not use rifle-patches but take along several balls in their mouths; the projectile thus moistened sticks to the powder when put into the gun. In the first place, on buffalo hunts, they do not carry rifles, for the reason that they think the care required in loading them takes too much time unnecessarily when shooting at close range and, furthermore, they find rifle balls too small. The hunter chases buffaloes at full gallop, discharges his gun, and reloads without slackening speed. To accomplish this he holds the weapon close within the bend of his left arm and, taking the powder horn in his right hand, draws out with his teeth the stopper, which is fastened to the horn to prevent its being lost, shakes the requisite amount of powder into his left palm, and again closes the horn. Then he grasps the gun with his right hand, holding it in a vertical position, pours the powder down the barrel, and gives the gun a sidelong thrust with the left hand, in order to shake the powder well through the priming hole into the touchpan (hunters at this place discard percussion caps as not practical).
Now he takes a bullet from his mouth and with his left hand puts it into the barrel, where, having been moistened with spittle, it adheres to the powder. He dares never to hold his weapon horizontal, that is, in position taken when firing, for fear the ball may stick fast in its course, allowing sufficient air to intervene between powder and lead to cause an explosion and splinter the barrel. So long as the ball rolls freely down there is no danger. Hunters approach the buffaloes so closely that they do not take aim but, lifting the gun lightly with both hands, point in the direction of the animal's heart and fire. They are very often wounded on the face and hands by the bursting gun barrels, which, especially when the weather is extremely cold, are shattered as easily as glass."

Rudolf Friedrich Kurz, Fort Union, 1851


Rod L

 

[LaBonte]

Thanks Rod...

Labonte = Chuck Burrows OK Mike? and yes I've been studying the West of 1803-1900 or so for nigh on to 50 years, and while I don't cliam to be and "expert" I am very wide read on the subject, in particular the RMFT era of 1807-1853.

I wouldn't say "LOTS" of written accounts, but there are some, and Bill Cody was the one that came to mind for me. Seems there are some accounts written by Englishmen also. Also seems they were running them with pistols if I recall.... I'll bet none of them pulled out a hack saw real quick and cut off their Sharps.

Nope - there are many of written accounts for running buffalo, of which Buffalo Bill and the one by Kurz are but two. Off the top of my head some others include:
Warren Ferris, Osborne Russell, Joe Meek (his description of running is here - http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/jmeek/chap19.html), Ruxton, Francis Parkman (his description of both running and stalking is here - http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/buffalo.htm ), and Captain Marcy. Off hand I can think of none of the 1820-1870 era journals that don't mention buffalo hunting at least in passim. Even the Rev Parker in 1836 noted it in his journal since he was perturbed that the mountaineers and others attending rode off in the middle of his sermon when the call went out that buffalo were near.

As for the Sharps - don't remember any being mentioned prior to the introduction of the M74 in 1871, when the stand hunting for hides became the main reason for the final slaughter. On the other hand since just about every type of gun ever built seems to have been used at one time or another I'd bet that the older models were most likely used by some - Bill Hamilton notes that he and his party went to California in 1852, wnd while there trade their Hawkens in on Sharps - he later returned to buffalo country.

Yes pistols and rifles were mentioned in some of the journals as being used by the buffalo runners - big bore flinters are mentioned as well as the big bore Colt Revolvers.
But NW guns are also mentioned:
Warren Ferris, 1831-1835: "We each possessed a fusil brought to this country expressly for the Indian trade, a light kind of gun which is used only by the hunters on our (the American) side of the mountains for running buffalo."
Were all the fusils cut down? not likely, but on the other hand Kurz description shows why a shorter barreled gun was better suited to running buffalo and that matches my own experiences when experimenting - nope did not chase buffalo but did do the riding, loading, etc (back when I was much sprier) and for me at 6 tall and with long arms, the longest convenient length barrel was 30" and 24-26" was optimum.

1830's is WAY late for the flintlock period and way later than the period of the guns that are being sold as stubby guns by today's dealers, with the exception of NSW.

Late yes, but then again flinters were still being sold in the west in the 1860's.

Gotta go for now....

 

[Mike Brooks]

Labonte = Chuck Burrows OK Mike? and yes I've been studying the West of 1803-1900 or so for nigh on to 50 years, and while I don't cliam to be and "expert" I am very wide read on the subject, in particular the RMFT era of 1807-1853.

Thanks Chuck, these internet handles confuse me , I can't keep straight who's who. :youcrazy: :haha:
You and I are on the same page as far as short guns go. Lots of factory made shorties in the 1800's, not so many in pre 1800 times.
I'm reading all I can lately about post 1865 west, technically not to be discussed on this board. But, I recently have bought a '63 shiloh sharps carbine and have little doubt it would be effective on buffs with in 200 yards, which would have been a practical distance early on before the herds got spooky. There were some nice sharps percussion sporting rifles being made as early as 1852. I also find myself shocked that you mention folks trading in the Hawken rifles for sharps rifles....I thought the Hawken was the king of the plains. :wink:

matches my own experiences when experimenting - nope did not chase buffalo but did do the riding, loading, etc (back when I was much sprier) and for me at 6 tall and with long arms, the longest convenient length barrel was 30" and 24-26" was optimum.

Tell you what Chuck, before we cash out we ought to arrange a buff run, it would more than likely kill us both but what a way to go! :grin: I'll build the NW guns, and I want mine real short..... :haha:

 

[Rod Lassey]

Interesting that you would mention both the NW gun and the Sharps. Fur trader Henry Boller--who sold his share of NW guns-- mentions the Sharps rifle (percussion, of course) on the Upper Missouri in the 1850s. He didn't think much of it, by the way. To his mind, THE gun of the area was the double barreled shotgun, for running buffalo. He ordered one from back east---percussion double barreled smoothbore, stock greased not varnished, with patchbox, brass mountings, rifle mounted (I take that to mean rifle buttplate and trigger guard), complete with front and rear sights--quick and easy to catch a sight through. When he got it, he wrote back to his father that everyone who examined it pronounced it the very gun to run buffalo with. He later sold it, when some one made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Some day, I'd like to make or have made one like that.

Rod

 

[Ketchakah]

Thats Cool,
I understand that. Thanks :v

 

[CoyoteJoe]

Since this has gone to seven pages I may as well ad my own two cents. I'm thinking strictly of performance in the field, I know nothing of historical accuracy.
I think that in terms of roundball performance barrel length means very little beyond the obvious effect of sight radius. With birdshot I think it does make a considerable difference.
I consider anything under 28-30 inches as a short barrel and anything under 24" as very short. I believe the issue is gas pressure at the muzzle, purely my theory of course. For any given load the pressure will be higher if the muzzle is closer to the breech. High gas pressure is still pushing the wad and shot column so when the shot escapes the confines of the bore that high gas pressure will drive the wads into the shot column, thus disrupting it. Any very slight disruption and deviation from a straight line course occurring right at the muzzle will be multiplied many times over as the pellets continue downrange, thus a very wide pattern spread.
Why do people saw off shotgun barrels but to get a wider pattern spread? Why were blunderbusses much shorter than same caliber muskets but to get a wider pattern spread.
I don't give a fig what it's called or how many were made in 1787, if you like short barrels go for it. I don't think you'll lose much in roundball ballistics or accuracy but with shot you'll have to accept some limitations.

 

[matt denison]

Coyote Joe said it better than I could have.

Round ball performance or shot performance depends on how that short barrel is loaded. Sawed off shotguns blow a wide pattern 'cause they are typically shooting shotshells that are manufactuered for a longer barrel. Think about it: Those BB's don't care how far they travel down a barrel except for the excess preasure that is forcing them out at the muzzle. If you try to shoot your everyday load of 70 gr of FFFg or 80 gr of FFg in a 20" barrel then you should expect to blow the pattern. BUT, when loaded down (say 65 gr. of FFg) then you start to get patterns designed to shoot well out of that short barel. That load may not be what you want to penetrate a turkey's feathers but will knock down grouse and pheasants or skwirels all day long. 65 gr. of FFg behind a .562 ball will whollop the Hell out of a whitetail out to 40 yards, maybe farther, trust me.

 

[poordevil]

LaffinDog

I think those Canoe Guns are great!

Can they be had in 16ga??

If not what ga/cal would you recamend?

Maybe you could show a target shot with yours.

P

 

[Darkgael]

Why were blunderbusses much shorter than same caliber muskets but to get a wider pattern spread.

The short length of many blunderbusses has nothing to do with trying to get a wider pattern. The belled short barrel was easier and faster to load in close quarters or on a the moving deck of a ship. On land, the guns were typically used to protect stagecoaches from highwaymen and the short length assured quick handling. Try reloading a Brown Bess while sitting in or on a moving stagecoach seat and then try reloading a BB with a 14" barrel. Try it sitting on any seat.
Pete

 

[gizamo]

This topic is really a gift that keeps on giving...much like a wedding ring. :grin:

I have to admit that I check it everyday, to see the new posts. It wains and becomes reborn, gathers some emotional storms, and then just sit's there...kind of taunting you...

Fun topic, and a great conversation... I've learned, figured out some voices to give weight to, and generally appreciated the discourse...

Well Done!


Gizamo

 

[poordevil]

I am going to go with a NSW canoe gun in 16ga!

P

 

[Le Grand]

I am going to go with a NSW canoe gun in 16ga!

P

I, for one, hope to hear more about it.