Northwest trade gun kit

[plmeek]

Not overly concerned with historical accuracy I'm looking for more of a shooter but don't want to make something that isn't at least reasonably accurate. That being said not sure I want to build anything without a chambers lock. Seems like they are the best so why not.

Shotgunner,

Something I don't see mentioned much about NW Trade Guns is the drop of the stock.

Barry Conner and some of the old GRRW gunsmiths have been recreating guns that GRRW sold back in the 1970's. One of the more recent models they've been building is a Leman NW Trade Gun. When I asked Barry why such a late version of the gun (Leman didn't start selling NW Trade Guns to US gov't until the 1840's and most were sold in the late 1850's), he told me Leman's stocks were the best fit for accurate shooting. Evidently, most of the earlier NW guns did not have enough drop for the shooter to get down low enough to aim the gun.

I noticed this the first time I shot my Michael Hayes W. Chance & Son NW Trade Gun. The gun was obviously designed to point rather than aim. You can find photos of it here.

Michael Hayes NW Trade Gun

A common complaint of Indians about Hudson's Bay Company guns was that the stocks were too straight. The Indians often solved the problem by modifying the stock themselves like in the picture below.

If I were you, I would choose the "kit" with the most drop in the stock.

Another option to consider since you are so enamored with Chamber's lock, is to build a simple or plain early English Fowler. Some of the surviving documentation on trading company gun orders often list "fowlers" along with "trade guns". These fowlers may have been one step up in quality and expense from the trade guns and were popular with civilians and Indians.

Phil Meek

 

[tenngun]

I got a track and like it a lot, the Davis lock works well and it shoots well. I used the plans and think it’s a close. It’s maple, should be walnut, I added a rear sight.

 

[bender20]

Thanks I'll look into that. Certainly want to build a shooter. I have a modern shotgun that fits me perfectly so I was hoping to pull some measurements from it for this build. I'm trying to talk myself into building one from a blank but the layout and drilling the ramrod seem a bit daunting. I may just go the route of a fowler so I have some more freedom in architecture and parts because apparently god forbid you build something not hc around here. Shooter comfort and higher quality parts apparently are second to copying the couple of surviving examples exactly and assuming they where never built any other way.

 

[Black Hand]

....because apparently god forbid you build something not hc around here. Shooter comfort and higher quality parts apparently are second to copying the couple of surviving examples exactly and assuming they where never built any other way.

If you wish to build a fantasy gun, you are certainly welcome to do so. But if that is the case, perhaps you should find a forum that isn't dedicated to traditional muzzleloading and ask there for advice. Also, the hostility & snarkiness are unnecessary - people here are trying to help you and barking at them like a stray dog isn't working well....

 

[coloradoclyde]

I may just go the route of a fowler so I have some more freedom in architecture and parts because apparently God forbid you build something not hc around here. Shooter comfort and higher quality parts apparently are second to copying the couple of surviving examples exactly and assuming they where never built any other way.

Now let's not get all excited....
Think of it this way...Putting a Rolls Royce emblem on a ford pinto does not a Rolls Royce make....

A fowler would be a good choice because you do have more freedom...
You certainly have the freedom to build what you want.....but if you call it a "Trade Gun" you better be ready to except criticism based on that title....
Please take note that people are trying to help you make the best decisions based on their experience. :v

 

[bender20]

Everyone but you. Your usual sarcasm and unnecessary comments are getting old.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Just remember boys and girls that the early trade guns were much more 'fowler-like' than the Northwest Trade Gun we usually think of first...in fact they're quite elegant in comparison. Not fancy like a true fowler but with a good barrel length and more drop for comfort.
https://claysmithguns.com/tradegun_1740.htm
https://claysmithguns.com/Kit_1740.htm

 

[bender20]

Thanks Westex forgot about clay smith anyone have any experience with his kits?

 

[coloradoclyde]

Everyone but you. Your usual sarcasm and unnecessary comments are getting old.

:shocked2: :v

 

[coloradoclyde]

Just remember boys and girls that the early trade guns were much more 'fowler-like' than the Northwest Trade Gun we usually think of first...

Yep!...first they were Dutch guns....then they were French Fusee's....Eventually the English got around to trading with the natives....

 

[plmeek]

Thanks Westex forgot about clay smith anyone have any experience with his kits?

Haven't had any experience with Clay Smith's kits, but he is a well known and respected builder, so I'm sure they're good. His English trade gun kits do use R. E. Davis locks, though.

If you decide on an English fowler with the Chambers lock, your only choice may be to source the parts individually from Track.

You could start with their pre-shaped but not in-let early Fowler Stock. This stock is actually carved by Pecatonica which they sell at the same price.

Then you could order the parts for Track's English fowler parts set, sans the lock and stock.

The stock I linked to above has the barrel channel partially cut as undersize 5/8” diameter round barrel channel cut 1/2” deep, full length. You will have to finished inletting the barrel. A 3/8" ramrod hole is drilled.

Of Sorts for Provincials, American Weapons of the French & Indian War by Jim Mullins on page 53 has some good pictures of a Richard Wilson fowler that might be helpful to you. Page 57 of the same book has some pictures of an Officer's fusil by James Barbar which is interesting to compare to the Wilson fowler. Then on page 61 of the same book are pictures of an Indian trade gun by John Bumford for further comparisons. Just food for thought.

Phil Meek

 

[Keb]

I had a Curly kit back in the 80's. It was a flat stock with about an inch of drop and weighed under 5 lbs. Talk about getting mule kicked every time it went off... I dished the cheek out the same way after getting it to shoot. It was a very accurate gun if you didn't mind being black & blue after a long day a of shooting.

 

[tenngun]

Trade guns were for trade. Whites American did get them and they were popular with French Canadians. However they were built to trade to Indians. I have one, but realistically it would be more probable for me to have a Fowler or smooth rifle-rifle mounted fusil. I explain my ownership of it by getting it cheap. It is hard to think of an impression where a Fowler wouldn’t fit in.
However we should not think of a NWG as poor. It was easy to handle, the barrels were proofed to same standards as other European guns. The locks were big and solid in the manner of military locks. Contrary to Hollywood and PC manure Indians demanded good equipment. Poorly made stuff was rejected.

 

[54ball]

Below is the baddest....as in greatest parts set I have seen....

Link Dunlap Shotgun
Dunlap Parts set

This set was copied from an original 1770s halfstock fowling gun. It is offered in 10-12 gauge.
It ain't no trade gun and due to the hooked breech....hollow rib and wedge key....a challenging build but if you wanted a great Shotgun.....this is it.

 

[rushlake1]

Here is the original Robin's Fowler..

Wanye used this half stock english
fowler as the base for his kit.

the kit comes with and chambers early ketland lock..rice bbl. built one in 10 ga, for less weight. top shelf..great kit.

 

[rushlake1]

This is from Dulaps Kit.
Walnut steel trim horn cap 10ga.

 

[jerrywh]

I'm building myself a HB or NW trade gun believe it or not. But I did op for a chambers lock.

 

[rushlake1]

Jerry..are you going to add any bling?

Please post when completed..

 

[Rifleman1776]

I note the Track kit does not have the breech plug installed. I am not an expert builder and know it. But , I do have enuf knowledge to understand that someone with limited building skills, like me, should not mess with trying to install the breech plug. Done wrong a $1,00.00 kit can be turned into a near wuthluss wall hanger or dangerous thing to shoot. If buying a 'kit' specify the breech plug must be factory installed by an expert or send the project off to a reputable builder. DAMHIK this.

 

[Zonie]

I believe both Track of the Wolf and Pecatonica River offer installing the breech plug for a fair cost.
( Some barrels come with the breech plug already installed. Green Mountain barrels didn't.)

I know Pecatonica River installed my first builds breech plug for me.
I also had them mill the dovetails for the front and rear sight because I was afraid of messing that job up.

The cost for both of these services was less than a local gunsmith wanted to just mill the sight dovetail grooves.