Northwest Trade Gun

[Hiverano]

We have handled lots of original NW Trade Guns but have only seen a few with signs of paint and always questioned if it was added years later. I read about painted NW guns every once in a while. Look at the book by De Witt Bailey published in 1999, titled "British Board of Ordnance Small Arms Contractors 1689-1840."

TITLED: The Indian Fusils of 1710

"The next order for Indian gift fusils involved the same number, 400, and the same cost, 18/- each, but was divided amongst twenty five of the London contractors. (noted under names part 1) These guns again had 3' 10" barrels, but the stocks (wood unspecified but almost certainly beech) were to be 'painted and spotted according to pattern'.

This is the first mention of what came to be a common feature on Indian guns he quotes - the spotted stocks." Note: the words in the phrase 'painted and spotted according to pattern' are italicized in the book ?

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I read years ago about trade guns with red painted stocks and that they cost more than standard. Jack Brooks has done some red stocks as I recall years ago, looked neat but how correct is that? Clay Smith has done different colors, don't know if that's correct or not?

 

[mikesto44]

If any of you are attending the Kalamazoo Living History show in Michigan this weekend. In the past Pecatonica has had an original ( ? ) blue painted Fowler. Plus all there other goodies.

 

[reddogge]

Me too.

Clark, let me know how this book compares with the others out there you have. Thanks.

 

[Rob M.]

I get the fact that the trade guns weren't made with hardwoods from America. But what about the rest of the Kibler lines? I understand that trade guns typically had the large trigger guard. Did that go away in the late seventeen hundreds?

According to archeologist T.M. Hamilton , the large bowed trigger guards are post 1780/, small bowed trigger guards on N.W. trade guns are pre 1780 ... Here's a neat pic . An early example I made in walnut for my buddy Tommy and , my gun , a post 1780 example of a N.W. trade gun....

 

[Clark Badgett]

According to archeologist T.M. Hamilton , the large bowed trigger guards are post 1780/, small bowed trigger guards on N.W. trade guns are pre 1780 ... Here's a neat pic . An early example I made in walnut for my buddy Tommy and , my gun , a post 1780 example of a N.W. trade gun....

While I won’t discount Hamilton’s work, it certainly can’t be called conclusive in this day and age. There really has been 45 years of additional research since his last published work. The muzzleloading hobby may never recover from his classifying French trade guns into 2 types where there were many, and all those types changed with each decade or so.

 

[Rob M.]

While I won’t discount Hamilton’s work, it certainly can’t be called conclusive in this day and age. There really has been 45 years of additional research since his last published work. The muzzleloading hobby may never recover from his classifying French trade guns into 2 types where there were many, and all those types changed with each decade or so.

Yep ...inconclusive ....All those historical sites he went to , all those archeological digs he went to ... researching , collecting , cataloging all the trade gun parts and trying to make sense of them all ... he made it all up to suit himself . Yep , your right ... The Muzzle loading hobby will never recover ... What a horrible man .

 

[Clark Badgett]

Yep ...inconclusive ....All those historical sites he went to , all those archeological digs he went to ... researching , collecting , cataloging all the trade gun parts and trying to make sense of them all ... he made it all up to suit himself . Yep , your right ... The Muzzle loading hobby will never recover ... What a horrible man .

So we just ignore everything that has been learned since and published buy 8 or so individuals who made it their entire life’s work to study not just the dug artifacts but also the pertinent documentation from England, France, Belgium etc, ignore what the extant full and intact specimens located in collections and museums here and in Europe tell us?

I’ll give you a hint Archaeologists are often wrong. Just as there were no such things as French type C&D trade guns. Even Hamilton himself retracted one of his initial types he laid out in the 70s.

 

[Cooleys]

Here is a Pecatonia River NW trade gun where I had them only do the barrel inlet/rr hole and rough shape. I had a Caywood trade gun lock and wanted to do the inletting and other work myself. The stock is as a plain as I could find English/European walnut The side plate is an old Northstar west stock. Rob M. knows his stuff and would be an excellent source for a relatively inexpensive NW trade gun.

 

[Crow Creek]

Its been SO long ago I dont remember . Its out of print now ... I got them from some common outfit , be it Dixie , Track or Log Cabin ....probably Dixie but I wouldnt swear to it . ... My first copy has come completely apart , its in my shop in a folder . I bought a second copy , thank goodness , I knew the first copy was getting used hard ; and its in good condition still . Then a couple years ago the authors daughter scanned a copy for me so I can send copies to folks .

Rob could I get a copy of this from you please? Electronic or ?

 

[Flint1]

Here's a general question for those knowledgeable on the NW trade guns. I understand in the Revolutionary period the NW was the region now comprised of generally Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois. Later during the nullification era of the antebellum period those states were still considered the NW. When I see the term NW trade gun I generally think as a trade gun for the tribes in Canada and the northern US areas, possibly reaching into the areas of the western fur trade. I suppose the tribes residing in those states I mentioned would have also received those guns. What about the woodland tribes in the SE? Would the British have provided that same type of NW trade gun to the SE woodland tribes?

 

[Rob M.]

Here is a Pecatonia River NW trade gun where I had them only do the barrel inlet/rr hole and rough shape. I had a Caywood trade gun lock and wanted to do the inletting and other work myself. The stock is as a plain as I could find English/European walnut The side plate is an old Northstar west stock. Rob M. knows his stuff and would be an excellent source for a relatively inexpensive NW trade gun.
View attachment 390914

WOW !! Thats a beauty !! :O Thanks for sharing !!

 

[Rob M.]

Here's a general question for those knowledgeable on the NW trade guns. I understand in the Revolutionary period the NW was the region now comprised of generally Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois. Later during the nullification era of the antebellum period those states were still considered the NW. When I see the term NW trade gun I generally think as a trade gun for the tribes in Canada and the northern US areas, possibly reaching into the areas of the western fur trade. I suppose the tribes residing in those states I mentioned would have also received those guns. What about the woodland tribes in the SE? Would the British have provided that same type of NW trade gun to the SE woodland tribes?

The Carolina Gun ! Pics on their way ... An interesting trade gun . Predominately imported in the southern colonies . An amazing historical firearm , look it up ....

 

[Hiverano]

Here's a general question for those knowledgeable on the NW trade guns. I understand in the Revolutionary period the NW was the region now comprised of generally Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois. Later during the nullification era of the antebellum period those states were still considered the NW. When I see the term NW trade gun I generally think as a trade gun for the tribes in Canada and the northern US areas, possibly reaching into the areas of the western fur trade. I suppose the tribes residing in those states I mentioned would have also received those guns. What about the woodland tribes in the SE? Would the British have provided that same type of NW trade gun to the SE woodland tribes?

We have founds NW Trade Guns all over the eastern states, called "Squirrel Guns" by the collectors and different Gun Societies. Hanson wrote "If there were buyers the traders took advantaged of them."

 

[Hiverano]

BEWARE Sitting Fox kits ... as their parts are OK, but their barrel is NOT a 'tapered breech' section barrel (in the octagonal part) unless you specify you want that and it will be an upgrade. Other than that, the other parts come out of typical places like where Track and other purveyors source their parts. Like I once 'lost' a ramrod pipe to my FdC build and the replacement sent to me came from Larry Zorn's gunshop.

If you'd consider one bult for you, to me there's no better builder of excellent Trade Guns at a phenomenal price, than our own @Rob M. who posts on here!

Ever since the layoffs and working from home started a few years ago some of the items the suppliers were getting have dried up. John at TOTW told me many of the items they use to carry have been on back order. Easier to stay home and get unemployment than go back to work. !@#$%^

 

[Clark Badgett]

Here's a general question for those knowledgeable on the NW trade guns. I understand in the Revolutionary period the NW was the region now comprised of generally Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Illinois. Later during the nullification era of the antebellum period those states were still considered the NW. When I see the term NW trade gun I generally think as a trade gun for the tribes in Canada and the northern US areas, possibly reaching into the areas of the western fur trade. I suppose the tribes residing in those states I mentioned would have also received those guns. What about the woodland tribes in the SE? Would the British have provided that same type of NW trade gun to the SE woodland tribes?

Eventually, the NW gun surpassed the Carolina gun and became ubiquitous. James Hanson in the Encyclopedia of Trade Goods vol. 1, said that there was no evidence that the flat sea serpent side plate was used in any numbers after the 1750s.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Ever since the layoffs and working from home started a few years ago some of the items the suppliers were getting have dried up. John at TOTW told me many of the items they use to carry have been on back order. Easier to stay home and get unemployment than go back to work. !@#$%^

There is at least one supplier that retired and has so far refused to sell or license his molds.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

There is at least one supplier that retired and has so far refused to sell or license his molds.

Little ingenuity and this becomes an easy fix.

 

[Clark Badgett]

Little ingenuity and this becomes an easy fix.

Yeah, it’s still a shame to have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Rock Home Isle]

Yeah, it’s still a shame to have to reinvent the wheel.

Agreed…essentially someone is going to put forth the effort and fill the gap.