NW gun trigger pull help

[jimikinz]

morning,

I finished a NW gun from a TOTW kit earlier this summer. Is it normal for these type of guns to have a very heavy trigger pull? It is 7-8 ponds.

I pinned the trigger as high as I could and have polished the sear and trigger. It just does not seem "right". Maybe I am applying a modern standard to an old design? I know those guys were tougher than me so maybe my fingers are just weak... :bow:

Thank you,
Jim

 

[Rifleman1776]

Good question. The trade guns were hunters and defensive weapons. They are not target rifles. Methinks a somewhat heavy trigger pull would have been de rigueur. The Brown Bess, used for military purposes has a heavy trigger. Heavier is safer in the field.
I'll be interested in what others have to say.

 

[tg]

I bought a used NW gun which had a pretty stiff trigger pull, I never measured it but I don't think it was quite that heavy I just used it "as is" to get the feel of the originals, something I have drifted toward of late, no liners, same powder to charge and prime and a lot of details that many try to make "better" than how they were done in the past, I have stoned plain triggers down to get them a little better, I thought there was a tutorial here on trigger/lock tunning if so it could be of help, there are some top builders here who will likley give you something to sink your teeth into.

 

[J.D.]

morning,

I pinned the trigger as high as I could and have polished the sear and trigger. It just does not seem "right". Maybe I am applying a modern standard to an old design? I know those guys were tougher than me so maybe my fingers are just weak... :bow:

Thank you,
Jim

High is good, but how far from the sear is the pin?

The farther away from the sear the pivot point is, the longer the lever, making the trigger pull heavier.

 

[rabjr]

From what I've read about these guns your pull is on the light side. Heavy trigger pulls were standard operating procedure for them.

 

[LRB]

Lighten your sear spring. It only needs enough strength to make a positive and reliable return of the sear after pulling the trigger.

 

[jimikinz]

J.D. The sear is about 1/4 and inch from the back of the trigger.

How would I go about lighteneing the trigger? Remove material? Or is it some of that metalurgical hocus pocus that I know so little about...tempering and what not :surrender: ?

It is nice to see that its not something way out of the norm...always interesting to understand a little more about how things were in times more contemporary to this rifle.

 

[BillyB]

I have built several NW style tradeguns. I too have pinned the trigger high in the stock to get the maximum amount of leverage. This is the key.
It took some getting used to when I began shooting it. If you are using the TOTW kit it uses the Pete Allen designed and RE Davis built trade gun lock. I have noticed that this lock can have very stout springs in it. Which can affect the trigger pull if evertything is not in perfect harmony.
Try it a few rounds and see if it adversley affects your ability to shoot. I became somewhat comfortable with the trigger pull on my gun.
If you are not comfortable making adjustments to your lock,then find a knowledgable person work on it. Saves a lot of time and trouble for you.

 

[ScottRoush]

The NW trade gun I just finished is pretty heavy too and I did put the pivot high. Actually.. it's only uncomfortably heavy on the first couple pulls, then it loosens up. Might this be a polishing issue? Once it loosens up, it's still heavy compared to other flinters I've shot.. but I wanted a heavier pull anyway.

 

[BillyB]

Allen is the manufacturer of the parts. Do not know who designed it.

 

[shortbow]

Like Wick suggested, I recently lightened my sear return spring and it halved my trigger pull.

 

[LRB]

I have never seen a production lock that did not have more sear spring than needed. A heavy sear spring makes for a heavy trigger, prematurely wears the sear and tumbler, and makes a lock noisy to cock. Many imports use a heavy spring to over come poor sear/notch contact. All production locks are heavy to avoid litigation. In a properly angled sear/tumbler notch, you should be able to manually set the sear, without the spring, and expect the cock to stay until you manually release it. The spring only needs enough strength to return the sear in a positive and safe manner.

 

[TinStar]

How does one lighten the sear spring?

TinStar

 

[matt denison]

J.D. The sear is about 1/4 and inch from the back of the trigger.

How would I go about lighteneing the trigger? Remove material? Or is it some of that metalurgical hocus pocus that I know so little about...tempering and what not :surrender: ?

It is nice to see that its not something way out of the norm...always interesting to understand a little more about how things were in times more contemporary to this rifle.

Of course it is out of the "norm".

Just because it is a Northwest gun doesn't mean it calls for a heavy trigger pull. :shake: We make tons of Northwest guns and average trigger pull is 2 1/2 - 3 pounds. Your gun was made by ?? from a kit. Did the builder do anything with the lock or ignore it? There are a bunch of reasons why your trigger pull might be too strong, one of which could be the sear spring, heavy main spring, poor inletting, pin placement. Very likely poor sear/tumbler notch angle. Simply lightening a sear spring may not do much for a 8 pound trigger pull. One thing I would check immediately and is simple to do without permanant harm is to smooth and deburr the interface of the sear spring on the sear arm. This is a detail overlooked by many builders. You may also have a combination of small things that add up to a heavy trigger pull. I've fixed a lot of these problems and before you go grinding on springs and etc. some trouble shooting is needed.

Remove it from the gun and snap it in your hands. Try to feel if there is friction, if it is binding. If it snaps good and let off is good then you can assume that the problem is in the pin placement or in the inletting (sear bar rubbing on wood or not enough space for the trigger to "throw" in its mortice) If it is too tough to let off outside of the mortise then you can start troubleshooting the lock parts.

Your TOW kit gun has a Davis lock in it. You shouldn't have to worry about tempering or any hocus pocus, they are basically good locks. My advice: if you don't know what you are doing find someone who does.

 

[LRB]

You start by grinding about 1/3 of it's width away, then see how it works. Then you may want to take away a little more, or not. If you want it lighter, at that point, you taper the sides of the action arm, little by little, cut and try. If it is still heavy, you then remove thickness on the action arm, but on a gentle taper to the end. You cannot let it over heat. Do not let it get so hot that you see colors, and you must grind length wise. Polish out any marks in the bend area. Also polish the tip, and the sear surface where the tip contacts. Laughindog also has some good advice above.

 

[Dphar]

morning,

I finished a NW gun from a TOTW kit earlier this summer. Is it normal for these type of guns to have a very heavy trigger pull? It is 7-8 ponds.

I pinned the trigger as high as I could and have polished the sear and trigger. It just does not seem "right". Maybe I am applying a modern standard to an old design? I know those guys were tougher than me so maybe my fingers are just weak... :bow:

Thank you,
Jim

Try some high tech grease, just a touch, on the sear and full cock notch.
It needs to have the spring adjusted and the sear nose and tumbler notches properly stoned.
Trade guns and muskets were not intended for precision shooting.
But "old designs" can be made very light and still be safe BUT it requires an understanding of how these things work together.

Dan

 

[jimikinz]

laffindog,

I built the kit, so that may be the major problem... :rotf:

It feels the same out of the mortise. I put it in a vise by the edge of the lock, and pulled with the scale and got the same numbers. It felt smooth, just hard to pull. I smoothed the sear/full cock notch, but did not stone it or polish it, nor did I polish the sear spring/sear arm contact area...so I will do those things.

I know the trigger inletting is not interfering, so that is one variable out of the way.

Our we talking about lightening the SEAR spring, not the MAIN spring as a second step after polishing the sear notch in the tumbler?


Everything about this lock is much "bigger" and stouter than the large Siler that I have in my other gun..so it makes sense that it would be different.

I won't do anyting drastic until I learn more..I prefer learning all I can before sending it to someone, just because I figure that will help me in the future.

Thanks, this site is a great place to learn and gather info!!
Jim

 

[LRB]

Yes. The sear spring, not the mainspring. Sometimes a mainspring needs to be lightened also, but not very often if everything else is going well. With the lock in your hands, uncocked, press the sear bar. It should move without excessive effort. I can't give you a poundage, but if you have to push hard, that is at the least, part of your problem.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The sear spring needs to be attended to. Also, always check to make sure you haven't Screwed that pivot screw for the sear into your lock plate TOO HARD, so that the reason the sear bar is difficult to move is because its BINDING against the lockplate. I have seen that in one lock.

I Like to remove the springs, so that I can move each of the parts of a lock manually, to make sure they are not rubbing, or binding against the plate or bridle, etc. I always add the sear spring Back to the lock, and then test the movement of the tumbler, and the sear bar with the spring in place. Only when that is working properly do I then install the mainspring, and test the lock parts again, this time under tension from that mainspring.

I think of this process as " Loading the parts" of the lock with spring tension, one spring at a time. All kinds of small problems come to light doing it this way.

For instance I once tuned a lock where the HOOK on the end of the Mainspring did not touch the horn on the front of the tumbler squarely, and was forcing the tumbler against the lockplate, causing drag, and difficulty in cocking the hammer back. ON examination, the hook was actually Twisted slightly- I suspect during the heat treating process. I also observed that when the tumbler was turned to full cock, and the mainspring was in full tension, that a gap appeared between the lockplate, and the working arm of the spring- as if the spring was trying to slip off the Horn of the tumbler.

I reshaped the nose of the hook so that it rested on the horn squarely, and the lock's problems disappeared. :hmm: :v

 

[Dane]

As others have mentioned. Pinned as high as possible and as close to the sear.

That means that the pivot pin should be only 3/8 to 1/2" forward of the sear.

Please don't mess with weakening springs, or filing on your sear, till you made sure all the other areas have been checked and eliminated.

Are you sure that something isn't dragging against wood?? Your lock internals, or the end of your sear bar??