NWTG in the Colonies?

[CyrusP]

Hello. Were there NWTG’s in the colonies around the time of the AWI? I love my newly acquired NWTG and would like to think some were carried in that time and place. Thanks.

 

[Collie]

I'm curious about this too. I ordered one of the Kibler fowlers and was wondering if that style of gun would have been carried by the colonials during the war

 

[Tumbledown]

There were styles similar to it, but what is commonly called the NWTG is something from a bit later.

 

[CyrusP]

Thank you.

 

[Clark Badgett]

It depends on what one wishes to call the NWTG. If you wish to say the brass sheet metal buttplate, iron large loop trigger guard and convex face English lock without bridles (usually) and cast serpent sideplate then it will go back to at least the 3rd quarter of the 18th century +\-. I’ll go dig up the references and see when the earliest of the style is dated.

 

[CyrusP]

I'm curious about this too. I ordered one of the Kibler fowlers and was wondering if that style of gun would have been carried by the colonials during the war

I think your Kibler Fowler type was more likely around in the Colonies than my NWTG. I’d say a fair amount of Fowlers were used early in the war until standardized military muskets eventually replaced them. Someone a lot more knowledgeable than I will be along shortly to shed more light.

 

[Clark Badgett]

I think your Kibler Fowler type was more likely around in the Colonies than my NWTG. I’d say a fair amount of Fowlers were used early in the war until standardized military muskets eventually replaced them. Someone a lot more knowledgeable than I will be along shortly to shed more light.

The earliest extant dated trade gun that carries all of the now accepted features of the NWTG that I can find in a cursory search is a Wilson dated 1751. The trigger guard on it is of the correct style, iron with lobed finials, but isn’t as deep in the trigger well as what would come later. It even has the early crescent Fox stamp on the plate.

It resides in the collection of the Museum of the Fur Trade.

 

[CyrusP]

Great info! Thank you!

 

[Clark Badgett]

Great info! Thank you!

Glad to help. Give me some time. I’m hoping to go through my references in the very near future and catalog all the pertinent details of all the English and French trade guns I can make out the details on. I think I have all but 1 of the published works on them.

 

[Rob M.]

The earliest extant dated trade gun that carries all of the now accepted features of the NWTG that I can find in a cursory search is a Wilson dated 1751. The trigger guard on it is of the correct style, iron with lobed finials, but isn’t as deep in the trigger well as what would come later. It even has the early crescent Fox stamp on the plate.

It resides in the collection of the Museum of the Fur Trade.

Good information bud and quite correct !

 

[Rob M.]

T.M. Hamilton , the great archeologist , uses the time line as such ... N.W. Trade guns with smaller bow trigger guards are pre1780 , N.W. trade guns with large " ox bow " trigger guard is post 1780 . This isn't a hard and fast rule but Mr. Hamilton was one heck of a archeologist and historian so.I bet its close . As the one gentleman mentioned ....there is a N.W. trade gun still in existence , which is amazing , that is dated 1751 , so that date for certain . I have pictures of the dug up parts of a NW trade gun from the 1740s ....So .... A couple things ... Were N.W. trade guns in the present continental U.S. during the Rev. War ? Yes ... Were they in the present continental U.S. during the F&I war or before ? ...I dont know . My guess , and as much as I love the N.W. gun I'm no expert ...my guess is they may have been in the Colonies but in very small amounts as the English fur traders were vastly outnumbered by the French fur companies.... that after the F&I War when the English moved from way up north , Hudsons Bay , and into what was once French Canada then the N.W. Trade gun were being seen and traded in abundance as the English took over the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River area for the fur trade ...

 

[Clark Badgett]

T.M. Hamilton , the great archeologist , uses the time line as such ... N.W. Trade guns with smaller bow trigger guards are pre1780 , N.W. trade guns with large " ox bow " trigger guard is post 1780 . This isn't a hard and fast rule but Mr. Hamilton was one heck of a archeologist and historian so.I bet its close . As the one gentleman mentioned ....there is a N.W. trade gun still in existence , which is amazing , that is dated 1751 , so that date for certain . I have pictures of the dug up parts of a NW trade gun from the 1740s ....So .... A couple things ... Were N.W. trade guns in the present continental U.S. during the Rev. War ? Yes ... Were they in the present continental U.S. during the F&I war ...I dont know . My guess , and as much as I love the N.W. gun I'm no expert ...my guess is they may have been in the Colonies but in very small amounts as the English fur traders were vastly outnumbered by the French fur companies.... that after the F&I War when the English moved from way up north , Hudsons Bay , and into what was once French Canada then the N.W. Trade gun were being seen and traded in abundance as the English took over the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River area for the fur trade ...

This is from memory, but several years ago I do believe someone did an article that included at least 1 northwest gun that had a provenance to use in the AWI.

 

[Rob M.]

This is from memory, but several years ago I do believe someone did an article that included at least 1 northwest gun that had a provenance to use in the AWI.

" American War of Independence " I assume ? Just making sure ....

 

[Rob M.]

Early versions of N.W. guns have some tell tell signs as well ....the finials on the trigger guard , round ends , smaller trigger bow , as mentioned earlier , thinner stocks , rounded stock toe ( top of buttplate ) , always had finial and tang carvings ....things like that

 

[Clark Badgett]

Early versions of N.W. guns have some tell tell signs as well ....the finials on the trigger guard , round ends , smaller trigger bow , as mentioned earlier , thinner stocks , rounded stock toe ( top of buttplate ) , always had finial and tang carvings ....things like that

The rounded heel if the buttplate is found here and there occasionally during the span, largely gone by the 1820s. The earliest English trade guns had sheet brass serpent sideplates that were engraved. The might also have a variety of trigger guards in bras and sometimes iron. Buttplates varied from near copies of French styles all the way to sheet brass. Barrels were usually the 3 step types common on regular fowlers for the trade. Also, locks usually had 3 lock bolts until sometime between 1800-1820.

 

[CyrusP]

Amazing info gentlemen. Thank you!

 

[Rob M.]

The rounded heel if the buttplate is found here and there occasionally during the span, largely gone by the 1820s. The earliest English trade guns had sheet brass serpent sideplates that were engraved. The might also have a variety of trigger guards in bras and sometimes iron. Buttplates varied from near copies of French styles all the way to sheet brass. Barrels were usually the 3 step types common on regular fowlers for the trade. Also, locks usually had 3 lock bolts until sometime between 1800-1820.

N.W. trade guns didnt have flat brass side plates or brass trigger guards , Carolina Guns had flat engraved side plates and brass trigger guards . Two different guns ... Butt plates of both the N.W. gun and the Carolina gun were never anything even close to French style trade guns .... English gun maker Wilson made some French styled / looking guns , stock shape and B.P. but cast serpent S.P. and obviously English hardware ... they aren't N.W. trade guns

 

[Clark Badgett]

N.W. trade guns didnt have flat brass side plates or brass trigger guards , Carolina Guns had flat engraved side plates and brass trigger guards . Two different guns ... Butt plates of both the N.W. gun and the Carolina gun were never anything even close to French style trade guns .... English gun maker Wilson made some French styled / looking guns , stock shape and B.P. but cast serpent S.P. and obviously English hardware ... they aren't N.W. trade guns

The English had lots of trade guns coming into the colonies early on, of which the Carolina gun was but one variation. Many of the trade guns were intended to compete with the French Fusils, and had French style furnishings and even stock shapes. I can assure you that there are numerous examples with the flat engraved plates that had nothing to do with the Carolina gun. The flat plate started to fall out of usage sometime between 1740-1750. The terms Northwest gun, Indian gun and London fusil started to become used in correspondence sometime around that time as well. Northwest gun became more common.

 

[Rob M.]

Did the English have trade guns early on ? Yes , they did , I know that ...... Did you even read the gentleman s question ? All the English trade guns were in competition with French guns until after the F&I war ... Duh ....

 

[Clark Badgett]

Did the English have trade guns early on ? Yes , they did , I know that ...... Did you even read the gentleman s question ? All the English trade guns were in competition with French guns until after the F&I war ... Duh ....

Why so testy? Duh