Oh boy! 'Primitive' season in Alabama?

[Dale Lilly]

Just had my laugh for today. Alabama is touting the opening of Primitive season tomorrow. Their ad displays a inline rifle with a scope. Unfortunately, many Wildlife regulators would not know the difference nor would the hunters. We might need a few paid lobbyists but the manufacturers of inlines would outbid us. Tooooo late. Dale

 

[Eric Krewson]

Primitive season for what? M/L usually opens on Nov. 15

 

[sheriff john]

Missouri's "Historic Weapons Season" has morphed from single-shot muzzleloaders not smaller than ,40 into "Alternative Weapons Season". Modern "pistols" (including braced AR's), crossbows, revolvers, inlines, and spears are now legal for deer during that time. Season was moved from part of the rut to Christmas Day.

Part of the problem was that as deer population skyrocketed, the number of primitive weapon hunters dwindled. Archery season (September to January 15) now includes crossbows to get both younger and older hunters out into the woods. It's no longer about the challenge nor even appreciation of historic weapons, it's about herd management and numbers of tags sold.

 

[Dale Lilly]

Primitive season for what? M/L usually opens on Nov. 15

Cannot find the ad but it had a bunch of AL pictures with guys shooting inlines with scopes, Eric. However it was undated, just said opens tomorrow. I made the mistake of thinking that meant 'tomorrow' [I should have known better than a Feb opening] but which tomorrow It might have been a gunmakers ad but it did say AL primitive. I'll be more careful of time frames ... sorry about that. Dale

 

[hanshi]

I've always hunted all seasons with a true muzzleloader regardless of what others roam around with. I detest inlines and wouldn't let one into my house. But seeing other "hunters" hunting with those weird things bothers me not at all. I'll always be carrying a flintlock.

 

[ffg]

AGREED

 

[megasupermagnum]

I've always hunted all seasons with a true muzzleloader regardless of what others roam around with. I detest inlines and wouldn't let one into my house. But seeing other "hunters" hunting with those weird things bothers me not at all. I'll always be carrying a flintlock.

Exactly. At no point has anyone, in any state, ever said you couldn't use a flintlock. People need to get over their elitism, entitlement, and discrimination. Hunt, or don't. I'm sick of these threads that put down other hunters for what they choose to use. It's nobody's business.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Exactly. At no point has anyone, in any state, ever said you couldn't use a flintlock. People need to get over their elitism, entitlement, and discrimination. Hunt, or don't. I'm sick of these threads that put down other hunters for what they choose to use. It's nobody's business.

Agree! As long as you can hunt with whatever you choose as a weapon why would anyone complain about what someone else is doing? Just go enjoy it & let the rest go.

 

[Nuthatch]

Exactly. At no point has anyone, in any state, ever said you couldn't use a flintlock. People need to get over their elitism, entitlement, and discrimination. Hunt, or don't. I'm sick of these threads that put down other hunters for what they choose to use. It's nobody's business.

I feel that it's context dependent. It's less about the weapon as an isolated object and more about what gets special privileges by the state. In AL & other whitetail states, more hunting pressure can be a good thing. Those whitetails can breed and stay in a tight area. So if people want to hunt with an in-line, crossbow, slingbow, electronically-ignited muzzleloading laser gun, then fine. Speaking only for myself, I really don't care. Same for bears out here -- we have plenty and I'd object to having a special season for any muzzleloader for them. Archery & general works for me, whatever I might happen to carry.

Out here, for deer, we have the opposite problem -- too many hunters for fewer deer on less and less available land. In our case, I'd be all for giving more opportunities to people hunting with more difficult methods, which has the effect of lowering kill rates or, at a minimum, keeping the harvest the same while allowing more people to be out hunting. It favors those willing to lower their odds, which has the benefit of leaving more game in the field for others. Why wouldn't we encourage that? Here's where I take objection to modern weapons of any kind (modern archery and modern muzzleloaders) that increase the effective range of hunters and raise their odds, not by woodsmanship, but simply by weapon type.

I don't feel that anybody is the devil here -- modern vs primitive. We're all hunters. But giving special legal privileges to a certain group, like an extended or special season, is tricky business when there's scarcity.

 

[megasupermagnum]

With a drawn tag, I can understand your thinking to a point. Most states with decent whitetail numbers sell OTC tags with no real limit other than how many each person can shoot. Something like black bear, I really fail to see how any weapon could effect this. Elk, Moose and other very limited big game animals is the only practical application I can see. States that have these would be like Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho, and those states have some of the strictest muzzleloader requirements in the country. It's almost laughable though since they don't hardly give out special muzzleloader tags, the only real advantage is often getting a different timeframe with fewer other hunters.

 

[Shooter1]

Personally after the last 5 years of medical problems, I can't us my stick bow... I do now have a special disabled shooter crossbow license. Hope I can still be here without being boo'ed off the page..

 

[megasupermagnum]

Personally after the last 5 years of medical problems, I can't us my stick bow... I do now have a special disabled shooter crossbow license. Hope I can still be here without being boo'ed off the page..

Certainly not by me. I've been trying to get my dad to switch to a crossbow for a few years now since every time he shoots his slug gun his shoulders and arms stiffen to the point he can barely move the next day, plus his circulation isn't so great, and he can barely handle under freezing temps anymore. I keep telling him a crossbow in the early bow season would be just the ticket.

 

[Nuthatch]

With a drawn tag, I can understand your thinking to a point. Most states with decent whitetail numbers sell OTC tags with no real limit other than how many each person can shoot. Something like black bear, I really fail to see how any weapon could effect this. Elk, Moose and other very limited big game animals is the only practical application I can see. States that have these would be like Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho, and those states have some of the strictest muzzleloader requirements in the country. It's almost laughable though since they don't hardly give out special muzzleloader tags, the only real advantage is often getting a different timeframe with fewer other hunters.

Yep. Different time frame is part of it. But there is an expectation of success rates that determines just how many tags are available. Double the success rates and the # of tags gets cut in half to keep the harvest at an acceptable rate. Put another way, cut the success rates in half and twice as many tags can be sold. Equipment is a huge driver of success rates.

I mostly hunt here in CA so that's the system I know best. We don't have whitetail. We have mulies, blacktail & hybrids. The density is much lower than what you find with whitetails. They like to roam a wide area and don't like to be crowded by each other. Coastal blacktail are much more prevalent but public land is limited. Western Sierra hybrids are there but the pressure is intense on public land. Each D zone sells about 5-10k tags for an expected harvest of about 300-500 deer per zone (5% success). Eastern Sierra mulies are coveted lottery tags that usually require 5 years or more of preference points. Should you get drawn, your season is about 2 weeks and will be archery, general or muzzleloader. There are some muzzy/archery hunts on the coast too, which I have done many times. But it's a tough hunt on public land and a short season. Most hunters will not be out during the rut since success rates are too high to keep the season open then.

I've been looking into AZ and the seem to have similar ways of doing things in the northern part of the state where the mulies live. Archers have way more options for late season coues in the central and south but not up north.

So I tend to be more lenient on muzzy types when it comes to the lottery (drawn) tags because they're already rather exclusive. I'd be okay with them going more traditional but (to be fair) I'm kind of biased that way as it is. And, if they do, I'd want to see more tags being sold to make up for the equipment limitations. The OTC tags are low-odds hunts here. At least for public land, which is most of our deer hunters. So if we end up giving special privileges to all muzzleloaders, even those that are basically as good as centerfires, we're not accomplishing much -- just favoring one group because we like them. Giving special privileges to legit primitive weapons, however, is unlikely to cause any harm -- what they gain in privilege is offset by a lower harvest rate. At least that's my thinking.

Sorry -- got kind of long-winded. But it's complicated out here.

 

[megasupermagnum]

That's where I'm not sure I agree with out about success rates. It's really hard to find an apples to apples comparison. Minnesota is about as lenient on muzzleloaders as you can get. Inlines, scopes, smokeless powder, even breech loading powder (firesticks) is all allowed. Looking at past regular firearms seasons, success is always fairly consistent around 31%-32%. Also consider 1/3rd of the states area, and the vast majority of the population is inside of the "shotgun zone", which is better said as the no rifle zone. Pistols in any caliber are allowed, shotguns with slugs only, muzzleloaders, crossbows, and bows. Also consider that I'm sure plenty of people buy these tags and never even hunt. Now looking at the muzzleloader season, where just about anything muzzleloading goes, success is way down, around 15%. You do have to also consider this is late season, right after the firearms season kills about 150,000 deer, deer are skittish, weather is harsh, and patterns are changing to post-rut. It's a tough season. Still, muzzleloaders right off the bat clearly have a lower success than a shotgun with slugs. Why, I have no idea. Some people hunt the firearms season with a muzzleloader because they can be more accurate than a slug gun.

The best comparison I can think of would be Pennsylvania. They have a flintlock only season, no scopes, nothing. It is also late season, right after their firearms. This is as close to 1-1 as you can get. Unfortunately I cant find a report on their deer seasons. If you can find that report, I'd really like to see it.

 

[GBG]

I do now have a special disabled shooter crossbow license. Hope I can still be here without being boo'ed off the page..

Let those who have shot half a million arrows from 45 to 85-pound longbows, recurves and compound over the last fifty years cast the first "boo".

 

[Nuthatch]

That's where I'm not sure I agree with out about success rates. It's really hard to find an apples to apples comparison….

The best comparison I can think of would be Pennsylvania. They have a flintlock only season, no scopes, nothing. It is also late season, right after their firearms. This is as close to 1-1 as you can get. Unfortunately I cant find a report on their deer seasons. If you can find that report, I'd really like to see it.

Yes, I can agree with that. It’s darned tough to get a read on all this. More art than science. There are few “lab conditions” that create consistent, easily interpreted results. Admittedly, I’m interpreting some here myself. The closest case I’ve come across is OK’s McAllister Ammunition Plant hunt that went back to traditional archery only in the late 80’s due to higher success rates with compounds being permitted (10 vs 17%). Certainly not an apples to apples comparison with muzzleloaders. But if in-lines weren’t an advantage, why would the relative demand be so high? Why would hunters choose them over traditional sidelocks? I’d say the market is telling us exactly which is more effective. How much of an advantage is the question and we’d need a similar study over many years, like the OK MAAP, to get a better read on that. Still wouldn’t be conclusive though.

On shotgun vs muzzy, I can only guess. But if I had to guess, I’d say shotguns are easier to operate, don’t misfire, don’t hangfire, don’t get wet powder, don’t require extra gear/accoutrements and are faster to reload. Given the choice, I can see why more people would choose a shotgun and why it could lead to higher success rates. The trajectory is somewhat limited but the faster ignition of a centerfire more than makes up for that downrange. Plus, all the sabot options….

I’m getting pretty deep into the weeds here so I’ll quit. But I think we can agree that hunters using modern weapons of any kind aren’t automatically unethical hunters. We hunters have certainly bigger dragons to fight than each other and I’m happy to share a campfire with a guy toting a compound or scoped in-line any day.

 

[sheriff john]

Why shotgun over M/L's? Lots more folks already own shotguns - all they need is a box of slugs and a tag.

Personally, I like M/L season because I have an aversion to getting shot.

 

[Willy]

I've never even held an in-line and I'll not knock anyone's choice on shooting irons (unless they start the argument and then I'll throw a bucket of coal oil on the fire), but in-lines strike me as "simplified" muzzleloading. It's just never interested me. I'll stick with my old caplock double 12. I bought it years ago with the idea of just hunting everything with the one gun. It's worked for me for almost 40 years now.

 

[Shooter1]

I have an inline.. custom built on old break action 12 gauge action. 42" green mountain barrel. 40 cal. round ball twist. shoot 50g FFF with .395 patched round ball. Shot many open comp matches against 6x18 scoped guns shooting sabot supported slugs, etc.. Sure surprised some of those guys when I out shot them with double peep iron sights. Sadly , my days of holding that rifle up to shoot are over. I could still shoot bench, which I have, but I always preferred off hand, My H&R under hammer 45 I can still manage with effort.

 

[Shooter1]

Let those who have shot half a million arrows from 45 to 85-pound longbows, recurves and compound over the last fifty years cast the first "boo".

Thanks GBG.. I have shot a lot of arrows, but now even my grandsons #12 bow is a chore. No more national competitions for me in primitive archery shoots. My eldest grandson now has my #50 stick bow and my son-in-law has my 2 #45 recurves. I have to stick to my crank cocked crossbow from now on.