Old gun, some rust, may need lapping?

[Jimbo2312]

Hello ladies and gentleman.
Very excited to be in a hive mind of folks who know their snuff. Rifle is a Traditions percussion .50 cal, probably the most common traditional muzzleloader that’s available- mines older though, say 40 years. (I’d love to be able to actually date it.)

What is a good indicator that you may need a bore polishing?
- I use a felt wad under my powder, still tore patch @90gr FFFG

What measurement would you consider “shallow” rifling?
-.505 on the lands, .517 in grooves

During my load development, it was hard for me to be consistent with nearly anything without putting 2 wet patches (cva bore cleaner) + 4 dry between shots; otherwise, my range rod locks in the barrel. As Idaho has some cool laws for muzzleloaders, I was hoping to use this as my gun after archery- IF it’s accurate with an ethical load!

Thank you in advance!

Edit: the patches in the picture are flip-flopped, also the sights were adjusted after the 75gr. shots

 

[Grenadier1758]

Yes, @Jimbo2312, 0.006" depth of groove is approaching the shallow end of groove depth. If your patches are showing a lot of fouling during your wipe of 2 wet and 4 dry patches, then that is an indication that an application of bore cleaning is in order. Perhaps a wipe of the bore with some 0000 steel wool is in order. Make sure that the Traditions chambered breech is clean. Wipe that out with a 22 caliber brush and a cleaning patch.

You are using a very tight ball and patch combination. A 190 grain ball is 0.501" in diameter and your patch of 0.018" ticking will be very tight. Even in a 40 year old bore, that can be tight enough to be tearing patches although I am not seeing much in the way of tearing and nothing alarming with respect to the edge fraying. Have you tried a 0.490" ball? These seem to be better sized for the Traditions rifles. I believe that the Traditions "Hawken" half stocked rifles have the 1 in 48 twist, so the 70 grain charge might be more accurate on target.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Shallow rifling can be .004" & deep rifling can be .010" or more. Your .006" rifling should be able to shoot both conical & PRB with the right load combination. I don't see any cutting on your patches. The fraying around the edges is normal. You didn't say what patch lube you are using, but that is as important as anything else in finding a good load. If you are going to hunt in cold weather, I suggest you try some Mink Oil lube. For ease of loading & reloading in the field you may want to experiment with some .490" & .495" balls with patches from .015" to .022" to see what works the best. For polishing your bore either J-B's Bore Cleaner or Turtle Wax Chrome Polish with a tight patch will work wonders. You have the whole summer to figure it out, so have fun shootin". Good Luck!!

 

[hanshi]

A groove depth of .006" is quite adequate for prb and conicals. That's not really shallow so much but still gets placed in that gray zone. My very accurate .54 has .006" grooves and excels with prb. I don't see any tears in the patches and 0000 steel wool or Scotch Brite pads will smooth up the bore with a few passes. In general it's the sharp crown that causes tears in patches more-so than the rifling, but it's easy to smooth the crown with sandpaper and one's thumb. Traditions rifle barrels are usually very fine shooters and very accurate. I got my first Traditions .50 well over 30 years ago and it was a fine deer rifle. By all means try different patch thicknesses and ball dia. Just me but I consider the range from 60 grains to around 80 grns of 3F is where one is more likely to find that "sweet spot".

 

[Maven]

Jimbo, I think I'd follow the above advice re Scotch Brite or 0000 steel wool with a muzzle protector on the rod you use. Also, if FFFg is all you have, by all means continue to use it, but start at 70gr. and work up. If you happen to have FFg, try that and work up. Lastly, a good wet lube may be a better choice for load development at the range/bench/truck hood: 1 part Ballistol : 6 parts water works wonderfully in all my BP long guns.

 

[Jimbo2312]

Yes, @Jimbo2312, 0.006" depth of groove is approaching the shallow end of groove depth. If your patches are showing a lot of fouling during your wipe of 2 wet and 4 dry patches, then that is an indication that an application of bore cleaning is in order. Perhaps a wipe of the bore with some 0000 steel wool is in order. Make sure that the Traditions chambered breech is clean. Wipe that out with a 22 caliber brush and a cleaning patch.

You are using a very tight ball and patch combination. A 190 grain ball is 0.501" in diameter and your patch of 0.018" ticking will be very tight. Even in a 40 year old bore, that can be tight enough to be tearing patches although I am not seeing much in the way of tearing and nothing alarming with respect to the edge fraying. Have you tried a 0.490" ball? These seem to be better sized for the Traditions rifles. I believe that the Traditions "Hawken" half stocked rifles have the 1 in 48 twist, so the 70 grain charge might be more accurate on target.

Thank you for taking the time to give some advise grenadier- the box was mis labeled, these are 181 grain, .490 balls from Traditions- in front of a felt over powder wad. Seriously considering the 0000 steel treatment!

 

[Jimbo2312]

Shallow rifling can be .004" & deep rifling can be .010" or more. Your .006" rifling should be able to shoot both conical & PRB with the right load combination. I don't see any cutting on your patches. The fraying around the edges is normal. You didn't say what patch lube you are using, but that is as important as anything else in finding a good load. If you are going to hunt in cold weather, I suggest you try some Mink Oil lube. For ease of loading & reloading in the field you may want to experiment with some .490" & .495" balls with patches from .015" to .022" to see what works the best. For polishing your bore either J-B's Bore Cleaner or Turtle Wax Chrome Polish with a tight patch will work wonders. You have the whole summer to figure it out, so have fun shootin". Good Luck!!

Thank you Hawkeye, Balistol is on the way for a ratio lube, seriously looking forward to developing a load for this throughout the summer! Appreciate the info on the deep/ shallow rifling too

 

[Jimbo2312]

Jimbo, I think I'd follow the above advice re Scotch Brite or 0000 steel wool with a muzzle protector on the rod you use. Also, if FFFg is all you have, by all means continue to use it, but start at 70gr. and work up. If you happen to have FFg, try that and work up. Lastly, a good wet lube may be a better choice for load development at the range/bench/truck hood: 1 part Ballistol : 6 parts water works wonderfully in all my BP long guns.

Balistol and some .495 round balls are on the way from good old midway; I do have some pyrodex but it’s old, but of course I’d love to stick with black powder and plan to!
Honestly, I don’t have enough powder to do a proper load development for the gun. I’m going to the friendship shoot to try and get a few pounds there!

 

[Jimbo2312]

Thank you Hawkeye, Balistol is on the way for a ratio lube, seriously looking forward to developing a load for this throughout the summer! Appreciate the info on the deep/ shallow rifling too

 

[Old Hawkeye]

Felt wads over the powder may or may not make a difference, so try them & see. There are dozens of patch lubes that will work, but the conditions in which you are shooting could give one an advantage. Wonder Lube & Bore Butter are more temperature sensitive & Ballistol/water lube has it's advantages & disadvantages, as well. I recommend you also try some type of animal fat lube like Mink oil, Bear oil, or other tallow/wax mix in your experimenting, especially if your purpose is hunting in Idaho temperatures.

 

[Grenadier1758]

Thank you for taking the time to give some advise grenadier- the box was mis labeled, these are 181 grain, .490 balls from Traditions- in front of a felt over powder wad. Seriously considering the 0000 steel treatment!

Glad to see you have a digital Vernier caliper. You will find that a simple measurement of objects will answer a lot of questions or start off a question with the needed background information for a good answer.

Ballistol is a good emulsifying lubricant to mix with water for a patch lubricant. Get the liquid form as the spray Ballistol contains other solvents and is difficult to get a proper liquid measure. This is best for shooting at the range. Of course any water soluble oil used for grinding or cutting can be used at almost the same ratios. I still am using my NAPA cutting oil I bought about 20 years ago so a bottle can last a long time, especially if the mix is one part oil to 7 parts water. The grease based lubricants are best for hunting as they don't migrate from the patch to the powder not do they dry out as the water based lubricants do.

 

[Jimbo2312]

Felt wads over the powder may or may not make a difference, so try them & see. There are dozens of patch lubes that will work, but the conditions in which you are shooting could give one an advantage. Wonder Lube & Bore Butter are more temperature sensitive & Ballistol/water lube has it's advantages & disadvantages, as well. I recommend you also try some type of animal fat lube like Mink oil, Bear oil, or other tallow/wax mix in your experimenting, especially if your purpose is hunting in Idaho temperatures.

Thanks Hawkeye, have you ever heard of using leather preservatives for lube? I’m definetly game to try out a lot of different lubes, but I have neatsfoot oil and this other stuff called “LP” that’s more of a softer wax, and I have it on hand.. just curious. I bet they’d hold up decent in the cold too

 

[Jimbo2312]

Glad to see you have a digital Vernier caliper. You will find that a simple measurement of objects will answer a lot of questions or start off a question with the needed background information for a good answer.

Ballistol is a good emulsifying lubricant to mix with water for a patch lubricant. Get the liquid form as the spray Ballistol contains other solvents and is difficult to get a proper liquid measure. This is best for shooting at the range. Of course any water soluble oil used for grinding or cutting can be used at almost the same ratios. I still am using my NAPA cutting oil I bought about 20 years ago so a bottle can last a long time, especially if the mix is one part oil to 7 parts water. The grease based lubricants are best for hunting as they don't migrate from the patch to the powder not do they dry out as the water based lubricants do.

Absolutely, glad I have them too I can only imagine how much calipers matter in the game of squeezing accuracy out of these guns! I will give the Balistol a shot, with .490 and .495 balls. I’d love to get light conicals but it seems you almost have to cast them yourself.. I do have some .385 grain Great Plains slugs that kick to high hell with 70gr of powder (at least from prone)

Question- when you measure patching thickness, do you measure it at max compression? These were .005 totally compressed but .018 resting

 

[Grenadier1758]

I measure patch thickness both ways. In the store, measuring at compression can be misleading due to the sizing solution in the cloth that makes the cloth feel smooth to the touch and easier to handle on the bolt, but for our purposes adds to the resistance to accurate measurement. The actual measurement of cloth from the fabric store is done after washing in hot water and drying. This removes the sizing and fulls (fluffs) the threads to tighten the weave. Removal of the sizing allows for the lubricant to penetrate the patch material better and make for a more accurate measurement of the compression.

I have had a long running debate with Dutch Schoultz (RIP) on cloth measurement. He advocates extreme compression measurements while he asserts that I measure cloth as if it were metal for slip fit. (He's correct.) Both of us are advocating a procedure that has the goal of improving accuracy on target. I believe that we must know the uncompressed thickness as well as a modestly compressed thickness. I am looking to see the density of the weave. Compression is difficult to maintain consistency and too much compression is abusive to precision measuring device such a micrometer or Vernier caliper. In most cases a patch around a ball will be compressed during loading more than the compression we apply as we measure the patch. I have a very old and much abused micrometer (lost behind my father's workbench for a decade or two) that I can get quite a bit more compression applied to the patch than with his well-cared for micrometer that he used as a tool maker. But even then, most patches have to fit in the 0.005" to 0.0025" of windage between the ball and the lands. Some of that is taken up as the patch embeds itself into the soft lead ball and the rest is taken up by the force of loading the patched ball into the barrel. I like to see a compressed measurement slightly greater than the gap between the ball and the land with an uncompressed measurement slightly greater than the depth of the groove and the ball to land gap.

 

[Jimbo2312]

I measure patch thickness both ways. In the store, measuring at compression can be misleading due to the sizing solution in the cloth that makes the cloth feel smooth to the touch and easier to handle on the bolt, but for our purposes adds to the resistance to accurate measurement. The actual measurement of cloth from the fabric store is done after washing in hot water and drying. This removes the sizing and fulls (fluffs) the threads to tighten the weave. Removal of the sizing allows for the lubricant to penetrate the patch material better and make for a more accurate measurement of the compression.

I have had a long running debate with Dutch Schoultz (RIP) on cloth measurement. He advocates extreme compression measurements while he asserts that I measure cloth as if it were metal for slip fit. (He's correct.) Both of us are advocating a procedure that has the goal of improving accuracy on target. I believe that we must know the uncompressed thickness as well as a modestly compressed thickness. I am looking to see the density of the weave. Compression is difficult to maintain consistency and too much compression is abusive to precision measuring device such a micrometer or Vernier caliper. In most cases a patch around a ball will be compressed during loading more than the compression we apply as we measure the patch. I have a very old and much abused micrometer (lost behind my father's workbench for a decade or two) that I can get quite a bit more compression applied to the patch than with his well-cared for micrometer that he used as a tool maker. But even then, most patches have to fit in the 0.005" to 0.0025" of windage between the ball and the lands. Some of that is taken up as the patch embeds itself into the soft lead ball and the rest is taken up by the force of loading the patched ball into the barrel. I like to see a compressed measurement slightly greater than the gap between the ball and the land with an uncompressed measurement slightly greater than the depth of the groove and the ball to land gap.

Wonderful information. That’s kind of where my head was at too, as far as assuming compression stats would be more important than uncompressed. So look at modest compression, avoid the calipers, going to see if harbor freight carries some micrometers. I have a rain day from work so I’m going to head to the fabric shop now and hunt for some

 

[SDSmlf]

What is a good indicator that you may need a bore polishing?
- I use a felt wad under my powder, still tore patch @90gr FFFG

You have a lot of good suggestions to consider. One I would add is to use a felt wad that is slightly larger than your bore to protect the patch, say .54” diameter in your 50 caliber. It will seal the bore better under your patched roundball.

As far as difficulty loading, your particular gun just may have sharp/rough edges left in the bore from the manufacturing process, or possibly hasn’t been cleaned properly in the past. There are many ways to polish and smooth up a bore. Here is a @duelist1954 video showing the process he used on a difficult to load GPR I have posted a link to many times.

I have used a similar method with Scotch-Brite for some time, but Mike explains his very well. I started doing it after speaking to Don Getz (Getz Barrel) years ago before he passed, and he recommended using the green (600 grit) Scotch-Brite for smoothing up barrels that were cutting patches. Said it wouldn’t hurt the barrel.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I did mention Dutch Schoultz and I should have said something about his "Black Powder Accuracy" system. This is a very good introduction with 94 pages of insight for getting the most accuracy on target. While Dutch has passed, his daughter has maintained his web site and the system is still available for $25. Dutch focuses the system on shooting paper targets on the range. Once one has the confidence with respect to the accuracy of the rifle, then when one is hunting, on a woods walk competition or just plinking, the the shooting can be relaxed, knowing that the ball will be going where you want the ball (or bullet) to go.

Look for Blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com.

 

[Jimbo2312]

Thanks fellas, I have some cosmetic stuff coming in to antique the gun a bit but a bore polish is taking the front seat this weekend. Funny enough, I watched the duelist’s video when I was doing research on this. So no concern with “dulling” up the rifling with this method? Also, I have jewelers rogue for my swivel knife, I’ve heard some guys use that too, any preference?

 

[SDSmlf]

So no concern with “dulling” up the rifling with this method?

No concern. You are trying to dull up or remove the sharp machining burrs from the rifling process that shred patches. Old rule of thumb was to be ready for an accuracy improvement and a necessary sight adjustment as you approached 200 shots or so. Steel wool and Scotch-Brite are just ways to potentially speed up the break in process.

 

[Jimbo2312]

No concern. You are trying to dull up or remove the sharp machining burrs from the rifling process that shred patches. Old rule of thumb was to be ready for an accuracy improvement and a necessary sight adjustment as you approached 200 shots or so. Steel wool and Scotch-Brite are just ways to potentially speed up the break in process.

Thanks SDS, hopefully the quest of squeezing solid accuracy and shoot-ability out of this rifle is going to be successful, I’ll be sure to post some results for you and everyone else that’s helped with this so far!