Older shooters

[gmww]

I think one of the problems with this issue is the use of "traditional" to cover all the states. I say this because in Wa. ML is not based on traditional but rather how a ML functions and what can be used in it. We don't have a clear distinct seperation of the two. So inlines (which I don't use or own) are permitted. However, the inlines are restricted to the point that they don't have an advantage over a traditional gun.

It's a valid argument in states where traditional is the key to the season.

So when I discuss this with a fellow Wa. hunters I try not to make the traditional argument as it doesn't apply for our particular state. The argument I put forth is based on a self (State) imposed regulation and the purpose intended by the original restrictions.

In regards to Toby. My added issue includes how someone is trying to legislate Wa. (and other states) regs. through the bench by suing the game departments.

 

[roundball]

I think one of the problems with this issue is the use of "traditional" to cover all the states.

Not quite like that...most people (younger ones) either don't know or forget that ALL state muzzleloader seasons were originally established for the purpose of primitive/traditional muzzleloading.

Only much later...creating the mixed bag that exists today...did the originally established traditional seasons began getting the influx of modern high pperformance muzzleloaders, scopes, sabot/bullets, etc, producing centerfire type performance.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I suspect that if the states outlawed the use of scope sights in the ML season, that would chase away about 95% of the in-line shooters. I don't mind them being used in the regular season, but I think we have distorted the original reason for the primitive and ML seasons. HUnter success ratios were suppose to be much lower than during the regular season for guns, because so many fewer hunters would be out, moving the deer around, and getting them up out of their beds.

 

[gmww]

Well Roundball your probably correct in that Wa. ML season was probably based on Traditional weapons. Unfortunately, that bit of history is lost to the younger folks.

 

[Wehrmacht]

Paul,

IMO we have overlooked a very important element in this whole scenario involving "primitive weapons hunts". Since I am in the forest/ wildlife management business,I probably see a side that isn't immediately evident to most others in our hobby or community or whatever we want to call our addiction.

At least in the eastern U.S.,whitetail management is probably the most successful example of wildlife management that we have. In fact,it has probably been too successful especially for....the insurance industry which has a very strong lobby!(Vehicle/deer collisions :winking In short,I think that most state legislatures have caved in to the demands of the insurance industry and have dictated to the state wildlife agencies to reduce the deer herd. Increasing the hunting pressure may be one of the options being used,and if that's the case why not just make the "Primitive Weapons Hunt just a little more effective? Perhaps I'm wrong in my opinion,but I think I'm right about this.

 

[roundball]

Paul,
"...why not just make the "Primitive Weapons Hunt just a little more effective..."

That's just another "red herring".....it's a SUPPORT THE HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADER mentality...there are many, many ways herd sizes are controlled and deer management success in our country does not pivot on whether or not HIGH PERFORMANCE MUZZLELOADERS are allowed into traditional ML seasons...just another red herring.
:thumbsup:

 

[Wehrmacht]

Now roundball..... hold on just a second! I don't really think that you fully understand what I am saying in my reply to Paul! First off,please understand that my Post in no way inferred that I support the modern in-line scope fellas. I have honestly never ever even picked up and looked at an in-line much less shot one. All of my muzzleloaders-all of them-are custom made flintlocks,and that's all I've hunted with for many,many years. But on the other hand neither do I hold the in-line crowd in distain.To each his own as far as I'm concerned, as long as it doesn't have a negative impact on me,and in-lines surely don't as far as I can determine.

I simply point out that I think various state legislatures have caved in to pressure from the insurance industry to do something about reducing the number of car/deer collisions. And I think that the various state game departments-under pressure-figure that one (ONE) of the tools to use is a very lenient primitive weapons season. That's all that I am saying,but I say this based on knowing a little of the inside storey of what's going on.

 

[Slamfire]

Some states are overrun by deer, Alabama for instance discovered a few years back that the annual harvest was less than the herd increase. Since then I've been able to buy a non resident license there for less than a resident license here in Tennessee.
In California and Nevada the opposite is true. They can't supply enough deer to meet the annual harvest, so they have had to restrict the number of hunters. You can't expect to get a reduction of legal weapons in Alabama like you could in California or Nevada. Instead of lobbying for restrictive muzzleloader hunts everywhere, lobby those states that have drawings for resident tags.

 

[Wehrmacht]

You are pinging on target about the deer herd in Alabama. I've worked pretty closely over the years (all on contract) with Auburn's Solon Dixon Forestry Center wildlife management fellas,and all agree that they have been too successful in re-establishing the deer population!

Georgia and much of north Florida is in the same situation. Last figures I saw for Georgia was around 48,000 deer/car collisions with about 10 fatalities and that was for 2004 I think. All three in my family have hit deer in the past 5 years. My wife's car was totaled.

We have excellent habitat here in the Deep South for deer,and the population is dangerously high in a lot of areas. Unfortunately state game commissions have to play politics in a lot of cases when it comes to game laws. Here in the Florida Panhandle we have a high black bear population....but no season now for 8 or so years. Same with 'gators,though a very limited hunt by permit does remove maybe one-tenth of one percent of the annual'gator increase! It's all politics.....that's one of the reasons I think state game commissions allow in-lines,scopes,etc.It gets a few more animals out of the herd while fooling the "Bunny Huggers" who would stop all hunting if they could :shocked2: .

 

[paulvallandigham]

Controlling deer herds can be done by extending seasons, issueing more permits, reducing the cost of permits, by offering " bonus " permits to hunters when they fill their existing tags, etc. We don't need to change the rules on primitive hunts for that purpose. It is a quesiton of politics, however, and not tradition, or hunter ethics, as to what kind of firearms are allowed by each state to hunt in primitive weapons seasons. I am simply not a fan of in-lines, for the reason that I don't see them as being necessary to kill a deer within reasonable distances. i have much less objection to shooters being allowed to put scope sights on their guns, as this is more likely to prevent accidents, and insure clean kills. It also allows older hunters whose eyes are not helping them anymore to continue to enjoy the special season. However, given the choice between opening the seasons to everyone with any kind of contraption that stuffs a bullet down a barrel, or exclude scopes, I would rather see the seasons protected, and scoped guns used during the normal gun seasons. I have hunted deer with a scope on my shotgun slug gun, and also with iron sights on it during the main season. When I was a deer checker, I found that the men who used scopes took many fewer shots than others to kill their deer, and they weren't spraying slugs all over the woods and skies. That would not be a problem with scopes on muzzle loaders, of course. We now have long eye relief scopes that can be mounted out on the barrel so they do not interfere with a side lock's action at all. It that would allow an older hunter to continue to hunt the ML season, I don't see the harm in welcoming him. He is probably a better hunter than most of the rest of us.