One of my favorite photos

[Coinneach]

I don't think anyone said anyone was carrying six pistol tucked into a sash. But two, sure.
Wild Bill used holsters early on, in cross draw fashion but later on went to a sash. I suspect simular to the cross draw holsters, more or less near the front but to the side.
It's hard to compare what we would do today to what people did back then. The man in the original photo had three pistols and a saber and he wanted them in the picture with him. So he stuck them in his belt. Doesn't mean he carried them there when he went to fight. But were they props? I don't think so. I think what the back of the picture says is true. We was a cavalry soldier and it just so happens he had three 1858 Remingtons he wanted in his picture. I guess he should have kept one out of his belt but I guess he wasn't thinking that nearly two hunderd years in the future people were going to rip him a new one for making a error in judgement.
Okay that's all I'm saying on this but thanks for all the fun.

There was an earlier post from his descendent who stated that his great great grandfather in the photo wasnt a Cavalryman at all, but he served towards the latter part of the war in Tennessee in a Union Infantry regiment.

Anyway seems that we've exhausted the discussion, thanks for contributing.

 

[M. De Land]

I grew up on a farm and with a saddle horse I rode bare back as often as not in the winter but can't remember ever carrying a weapon on him. I think ole "Ted" would have unloaded me had I fired any weapon from his back.
I can see how only a side mount personal holster, pommel mount saddle holster or lanyard secured belt gun would stay put especially at a trot.
We did have a ball swimming the horses though in the mill pond jumping them off a cut bank into about 8ft of water.
They seemed to love it but would bunch up just at the edge of the cut bank at a dead run then leap out and do a big belly flop into the water. A horse can swim like a duck and really fast too. I'm always amazed when talking horse with folks that own them and have never swam a horse before. We always swam them bare back after pulling the saddles.
It does require a loop rein or knotted singles. I remember having to grab a fist full of main after the horse would bunch up and balk at the cut bank just before the leap off or he would jump right out from under me. Boy would the water fly when Ted did his belly flop.
I would stay with him into the water then slide off his back and hold on to his tail clear of the flay-ling rear hooves a swimming horse does.
Bare back was my preferred style of riding in the winter but horse sweat in hot weather will burn the crap out of your legs and butt. I miss ole Ted!

 

[Coinneach]

I grew up on a farm and with a saddle horse I rode bare back as often as not in the winter but can't remember ever carrying a weapon on him. I think ole "Ted" would have unloaded me had I fired any weapon from his back.
I can see how only a side mount personal holster, pommel mount saddle holster or lanyard secured belt gun would stay put especially at a trot.
We did have a ball swimming the horses though in the mill pond jumping them off a cut bank into about 8ft of water.
They seemed to love it but would bunch up just at the edge of the cut bank at a dead run then leap out and do a big belly flop into the water. A horse can swim like a duck and really fast too. I'm always amazed when talking horse with folks that own them and have never swam a horse before. We always swam then bare back after pulling the saddles.
Bare back was my preferred style of riding in the winter put horse sweat in hot weather will burn the crap out of your legs in hot weather. I miss ole Ted!

A good read mate, seems like we had similar backgrounds.

Winston Churchill said "There's something about the outside of a Horse, that's good for the inside of a Man".
I believe that to be true, here I am nearly 70 years old and still have 5 of them, one was my Stud Stallion (now gelded) the other 4 I bred. They're very therapeutic in this era of insanity.

 

[FishDFly]

There was an earlier post from his descendent who stated that his great great grandfather in the photo wasnt a Cavalryman at all, but he served towards the latter part of the war in Tennessee in a Union Infantry regiment.

Anyway seems that we've exhausted the discussion, thanks for contributing.

Time for taps.

 

[oncewas]

Okay not to beat a dead horse but the term Horse Pistol came about due to pistols that were carried in a holster on the horse's saddle because there were too big to carry on your person. As far back as Lewis and Clark.. Pistols | Discovering Lewis & Clark ®
Also the picture is from the Library of Congress [A. J. Blue, cavalry soldier in Union shell jacket and bummer cap with three Remington revolvers in his belt, holding a sword] with detail information about the soldier.
Oaky that's it for me this has been fun but it's time to go.
Thanks for all the fun.

 

[Coinneach]

Okay not to beat a dead horse but the term Horse Pistol came about due to pistols that were carried in a holster on the horse's saddle because there were too big to carry on your person. As far back as Lewis and Clark.. Pistols | Discovering Lewis & Clark ®
Also the picture is from the Library of Congress [A. J. Blue, cavalry soldier in Union shell jacket and bummer cap with three Remington revolvers in his belt, holding a sword] with detail information about the soldier.
Oaky that's it for me this has been fun but it's time to go.
Thanks for all the fun.

" He approached Colt, requesting a large revolver to replace the single-shot Aston Johnson holster pistols then in use. The desired .44-.45 caliber revolver would be carried in saddle mounted holsters and would be large enough to dispatch horses as well as enemy soldiers. "
(torybytez.com/2016/01/05/1847-sam-colts-first-major-commercial-revolver-colt-walker/)

Your example of the picture of A.J Blue is just another Studio posed photo, a large part of the discussion has been questioning how realistic such photos were of actual in the field /campaign practises.
(A. J. Blue, cavalry soldier in Union shell jacket and bummer cap with three Remington revolvers in his belt, holding a sword] - digital file from original item | Library of Congress (loc.gov)

 

[oncewas]

" He approached Colt, requesting a large revolver to replace the single-shot Aston Johnson holster pistols then in use. "

Your quote not mine.
And I said I was done but here we are again. It's a photo you weren't there and neither was I. I don't know what the guy was trying to do and neither do you. But he had a picture made and he had three pistols let it go.
I say cavalry soldiers carried more than one pistol into combat, I get the impression you don't think they did. There is documented proof they did. Did they carry them on thier person I seriously doubt it. But they did carry them.

Your example of the picture of A.J Blue is just another Studio posed photo, a large part of the discussion has been questioning how realistic such photos were of actual in the field /campaign practises.

I thought you were discussing whether cavarly solders carried more than one pistol into combat. I must have mis-read. There you win. Good bye

 

[Coinneach]

Your quote not mine.
And I said I was done but here we are again. It's a photo you weren't there and neither was I. I don't know what the guy was trying to do and neither do you. But he had a picture made and he had three pistols let it go.
I say cavalry soldiers carried more than one pistol into combat, I get the impression you don't think they did. There is documented proof they did. Did they carry them on thier person I seriously doubt it. But they did carry them.


I thought you were discussing whether cavarly solders carried more than one pistol into combat. I must have mis-read. There you win. Good bye"

Nah nah the game isnt played that way if the discussion has been re-activated LOL.

I'm sure that you're aware of the Colt "Texas Colt" Patterson revolver .36 cal and its history, so why you threw the single shot AJ holster pistol in doesn't hold any relevance here (refer to later quote in this post). Obviously the .54 AJ Percussion single shot pistol was at least a heavy enough calibre for Captain Sam Walker to mention to Sam Colt in the hope of a heavier calibre Revolver option after the sub standard performance of the Texas Patterson in .36 cal that had been used by the Texas Rangers.

"The Colt Paterson gave Texans the firepower to defend themselves against attacks, as well as put native populations on the defensive. This Holster Model with a nine-inch barrel is known as the “Texas Colt” because it was the exact model carried by the Texas Rangers....... One drawback of the weapon was a tricky trigger, which only extended when the hammer was cocked. There were numerous instances of the trigger getting jammed in the retracted state, rendering the gun useless in battle. Another major issue was a lack of firepower. The gun was not strong enough to inflict wounds sufficiently heavy to take an enemy combatant out of the fight. In response to these issues, Samuel Colt partnered with Captain Samuel H. Walker to create the Colt Walker revolver.."
(Colt Paterson Revolver, Called the “Texas Colt” - The Bryan Museum)

Its not about "winning" , its about a free and open discussion on an interesting history of period firearms; all within a respectful attitude towards each other.

 

[Colonial Boy]

Photo props?

Maybe, you don’t often see left handed percussion revolvers

 

[Coinneach]

Maybe, you don’t often see left handed percussion revolvers

Now that's an interesting perspective, an old mate of mine (Garry who was a Gun dealer) told me that Sam Colt was a left hander which I'd never heard of before; so asked him how did he know.
He produced a thick reference book on Colts and there it was, interestingly as a left hander myself (although I'm ambidextrous with a Pistol) I always liked the single action Colts (and Ruger /Uberti clones) as I could flick the loading gate open with my left thumb when master hand; and operate the ejecting rod comfortably with my right hand almost simultaneously.
Did ol Sam Colt design for that feature ? Who knows.

 

[Colonial Boy]

Lots of old photo got printed back to front, Billy the Kid is one of the most famous; even known as “The Left-handed Outlaw” till someone noticed that the loading gate on his Winchester was on the wrong side and consequently his pistol was on his right side and not his left.

 

[oncewas]

Okay I only threw out the single action pistols to point out that pistols before the Walker were known as Horse Pistols. Not because they could drop a horse but because they had to be carried in holsters on the horse because of weight and length.

 

[oncewas]

Oh you'll like this one. There are over 17000 photo in the Library of Congress of the Civil War ear. A lot of the soldiers are sporting weapons many have both pistols and rifles. Are they props? I seriously doubt it. But I wasn't there to confirm that.

 

[Planefixr]

Well can never have to many guns! I’d rather have one and not need it than to need one and not have it!

 

[fishmusic]

May bad. My fingers were typing too fast.

Give the man credit. Neither spelling would be caught by spell check!

 

[M. De Land]

The Colt Walker .44 cal pistols were called "Horse pistols" for a very good reason; they were primarily used to combat the Comanches who were adept at sliding to the other side of their Horse while under fire. The Texas Rangers needed a heavy calibre revolver to drop the Commanche Horses, thats why Captain Walker conferred with Sam Colt because the Colt Patterson revolver of .36 cal couldnt do the job; the only thing in their favour was that they were revolvers and capable of follow up shots unlike the single shot ML percussion pistols the Rangers had before then.

As for it making sense that "the Confederacy were adept at multiple pistol use from Horseback as Texas was a confederate state" lets have a look at a creditable historical reference in regard to the 8th Texas Cavalry (Terrys Texas Rangers) acknowledged as "probably the best-known Texas unit to serve in the Civil War. It earned a reputation that ranked it among the most effective mounted regiments in the western theater of operations".

"The Eighth Texas Cavalry, a group of Texas volunteers for the Confederate Army popularly known as Terry's Texas Rangers, was assembled by Benjamin Franklin Terry in August 1861. Each man was required to furnish a shotgun or carbine, a Colt revolver"
(TSHA | Eighth Texas Cavalry [Terry's Texas Rangers])
Note "a Colt revolver" being singular, and the fore mentioned preference of "a shotgun"

Never rely on assumptions when it comes to history.

I can't say I have ever seen a single reference to shot gun use on Comanche or Apache by mounted Texas Rangers but have read numerous uses of revolver and carbines in engagements with them.
The Patterson was the real game changer not the shot gun and the Walker was a Patterson on steroids . Seems to me that the revolver was the predominate and preferred tool of the mounted Texas Rangers and is far less cumbersome than either a shot gun or carbine on horse back,. Logic as well as actual referenced use of revolvers on horse back would dictate that the same would hold true in the civil war.

 

[TFoley]

As a general throwaway line, the vast majority of the photographs taken during the Civil War and especially the 'cheap and cheerful' images we see, contemporary versions of the fast photo booths, were either Daguerreotypes tintypes, which both had the virtue of produced a very quick mirror image. The famous 'Billy the Kid' photo is one such example.

Only the likes of Brady used glass plate cameras which made a negative image, which, when exposed to the correct chemicals, could be viewed in a more positive light [so to speak]. This is why we see so many common soldiers back to front, but generals the right way round. $$$$$.

 

[TFoley]

Oh you'll like this one. There are over 17000 photo in the Library of Congress of the Civil War ear. A lot of the soldiers are sporting weapons many have both pistols and rifles. Are they props? I seriously doubt it. But I wasn't there to confirm that.

I've put him the right way around - look at the buttons, and tweaked the image somewhat.

Even our original overweight friend benefits from a bit of lateral inversion - putting the nipple access cutout on the correct side of the frame -

Again, the buttons are the giveaway. Also, look for the US or CSA on the belt buckles...

 

[Coinneach]

Okay I only threw out the single action pistols to point out that pistols before the Walker were known as Horse Pistols. Not because they could drop a horse but because they had to be carried in holsters on the horse because of weight and length.

I agree that the term "Horse pistol" applied to earlier single shot ML types, all the way back to the 17th century when Wheelocks were holstered on Saddles.

But my research over time also confirmed that in the 19th century the term "Horse pistol" was used especially for the heavy calibre Walker and later Dragoon Colts that were specifically intended to drop a Horse (thereby disabling its rider) in combat.

First hand accounts even before the War between the States (in particular Texas) describe commanders ordering their troops to "shoot the Horses" (enemy) and similar accounts exist in the 1860-65 War.

My apologies if I seem obsessive, but I'm a military history nut; one would think I'd be over it all after 37 years Army service but there it is.

 

[Coinneach]

I can't say I have ever seen a single reference to shot gun use on Comanche or Apache by mounted Texas Rangers but have read numerous uses of revolver and carbines in engagements with them.
The Patterson was the real game changer not the shot gun and the Walker was a Patterson on steroids . Seems to me that the revolver was the predominate and preferred tool of the mounted Texas Rangers and is far less cumbersome than either a shot gun or carbine on horse back,. Logic as well as actual referenced use of revolvers on horse back would dictate that the same would hold true in the civil war.

Please read my earlier posts.