Opinions? 4F in a .32 Crockett?

[robinsroost]

Opinions are like rectal orifices, everyone has one. I read the previous thread about using 4fg as a main charge before making my request, then again after. Only Britsmoothy bothered to answer my question as to if 10 grains of 4fg would be safe, in my .32 Crockett. I have a lot of 4fg on hand and seldom use it. I was thinking that 10 grains of 4fg might be equivalent to 15 grains of 3fg, with a 33 1/3% saving. If we limit ourselves to questions and items that have not been previously discussed, we will shortly have nothing to discuss. robin

 

[Eutycus]

I've never used 4f but if your equivalent guessing is right I dont see how 10 gr. could do any harm. My opinion !

 

[Britsmoothy]

DD. I have come to believe a lot of folk have to have some rules, limits. Not ordinary rules or limits that we are all subject too no but things they cling to, a belief, to have a box to keep things in!!

The problem is when someone comes along and tips up their box or unfounded beliefs they go to pieces and all rational behaviour diminishes.
Just imagine the pain that all those flat earth believers went through when the sphere they are standing on was revealed to them! It's just the same with this one.

Did you try it yet?

B.

 

[Kansas Jake]

I don't have a bunch of 4f around. I checked the other day and I have about 3/4 of a pound of it in a Hodgdon can from sometime in the 1970s. If I had a bunch, I'd probably shoot it in my 32. It has the same barrel width as many 45 and 50 caliber rifles. I'd start with a light load and keep it light. I don't anticipate any problems with that.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

thats what i plan to shoot when i buy the crockett kit and build the gun. a lot less cleaning between shots and used it before in a 5 cal round ball gun with no problems.cracks, makes smoke and i can cut center at the get to gethers, thats all i want.

 

[dragnetbill]

Opinions are like rectal orifices, everyone has one. I read the previous thread about using 4fg as a main charge before making my request, then again after. Only Britsmoothy bothered to answer my question as to if 10 grains of 4fg would be safe, in my .32 Crockett. I have a lot of 4fg on hand and seldom use it. I was thinking that 10 grains of 4fg might be equivalent to 15 grains of 3fg, with a 33 1/3% saving. If we limit ourselves to questions and items that have not been previously discussed, we will shortly have nothing to discuss. robin

DD,
If you would like to discuss nothing I think you should start another thread; now that would be something.....about nothing.

 

[Grimord]

I have never tried 4f as a ball propellant in my .32's,but I don't see why it wouldn't work if you kept the charges relatively low. I believe there would be more pressure from 4 f if substituted for standard 3f loads. the only problem I do foresee, is that when shooting 4f on a humid day it tends to get sticky and gooey and might not get down to the breech when loading. Can't hurt to give it a try.

 

[Comfortably_Numb]

I had a .29 years ago that I fooled around with 4f loads in. It was a long time ago so I don't remember details, but I doubt I went over 30gr. There were pros and cons. The 4f turned to mush pretty quick on humid days and was apt to miss fire because the breech was filled with goo. It also left behind about the same amount of fouling in the barrel as 3f did. The accuracy was good. I went back to 3f.

 

[russellshaffer]

I'm not so sure about the orifices, Dog. Some of our members are the one and only authority on many subjects and you will be struck by lightning if you disagree with them. I don't believe those folks have orifices.

 

[Black Hand]

I'm not so sure about the orifices, Dog. Some of our members are the one and only authority on many subjects and you will be struck by lightning if you disagree with them. I don't believe those folks have orifices.

It's not what you say, it's what you can support with evidence - If you can't back it up, it's not a fact, just another baseless assertion that can be dismissed. That said, if you chose to bad-mouth people without adding anything to the conversation, then we have a pretty good idea of who should be ignored....

If you think someone is wrong - post a rebuttal showing your evidence.

 

[Bo T]

From what I have read, larger grain powder will fracture upon firing, creating smaller grains before the ignition. So a portion of 3f charge will become smaller before it ignites. This indicates, that while the rate of burn for 4f is initially faster than 3f, the ultimate pressure generated for a correctly packed charge will not vary by much. Especially given the large overlap in grain sizes between 3f and 4f powders. A greater concern is having the correct mass to volume measurement. Also, glazed, graphited black powder is cited as having a greater moisture resistance than glazed or unglazed powder. The powder that was prepared in the early colonies having a large proportion of sodium nitrate being the least resistant to picking up moisture.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

The problem is when someone comes along and tips up their box or unfounded beliefs they go to pieces and all rational behaviour diminishes.

Just imagine the pain that all those flat earth believers went through when the sphere they are standing on was revealed to them! It's just the same with this one.

Did you try it yet?

In addition to that, consider this....
If you think it won't harm yourself nor your gun, I'd say test it out. You can do so in a safe manner and truly see.

On the other hand, what could any of the rest of us offer? Anecdotal evidence if it went bad for one or more people does not mean it would go bad for you, as it would likely have been in a different rifle, different manufacturer. I doubt anybody has tested it in any sort of controlled setting.

In the 1940's they were using a little less than 10 grains of a certain type of smokeless powder as the base charge in long range muzzle loading black powder rifles. (iirc) It made for a very complete burn and really reduced the fouling. Now that particular formula of smokeless powder is no longer found, and I don't think anybody outside of Dupont or Hercules would know what pressures it created, IF they archived the data on that smokeless formula, so one could not make an informed decision to copy that procedure, nor should they try. BUT it was done and apparently with no ill effects to the rifles. (see The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle by Ned Roberts) Today, nobody will tell you to even think of doing this....,

So things change over time, and folks adopt standard rules, especially in a litigious society that we now have. You're responsible for you, so I'd quit worrying about the rest of us.

LD

 

[BrownBear]

Opinions are like rectal orifices, everyone has one. I read the previous thread about using 4fg as a main charge before making my request, then again after. Only Britsmoothy bothered to answer my question as to if 10 grains of 4fg would be safe, in my .32 Crockett. I have a lot of 4fg on hand and seldom use it. I was thinking that 10 grains of 4fg might be equivalent to 15 grains of 3fg, with a 33 1/3% saving. If we limit ourselves to questions and items that have not been previously discussed, we will shortly have nothing to discuss. robin

My regular shooting bud has been at the ML game a long, long time and shoots several originals in addition to modern built. Learned about it all from his dad and granddad when he was a youngster and just kept it up. That tells you how far back his pool of experience and knowledge goes, cuzz my bud is 74 YOA now.

That being said, he uses 4f in his modern 32 and the original 35 caliber (.340 ball) he inherited from his granddad. Just like his dad and his granddad before that. Only trick is, they're all flinters rather than cappers. He's using 10 grains in both the 32 and the 35. He reports the only downside is erosion of the flash hole over a 30-40 years span, to the point it becomes a flame thrower and he has to keep the guns canted to keep such fine powder from dribbling out. The 30-40 years is key, because that's the point at which he lines the flash hole and figures he's good for another 30-40 years.

I quizzed him about using 4f in my Crockett, since I had several cans and no longer use it for prime in my flinters. He said cappers would be easy cuzz you just change out the nipple once in a while. I never got to try it because he got real enthused to hear I had 4f I was unlikely to use. He swapped me 2 cans of 3f for each can of 4f, he was so enthused. And we're both happy.

 

[BlackHillsBob]

very good informative reply brown bear. thanks for that.

 

[hanshi]

Modern barrels are tough, strong and safe. A .32 or .36 should be able to thrive on 4F even with charges well above what 10 grains. My main problem with 4F in large caliber rifles is that blowby & scorched patches might be more likely; but even that can be dealt with. I've never used 4F as a main charge but wouldn't hesitate if 4F was what I had.

 

[WRustyLane]

Modern barrels are tough, strong and safe. A .32 or .36 should be able to thrive on 4F even with charges well above what 10 grains. My main problem with 4F in large caliber rifles is that blowby & scorched patches might be more likely; but even that can be dealt with. I've never used 4F as a main charge but wouldn't hesitate if 4F was what I had.

I believe that I would do as what you have stated if that's all I had and needed to shoot and had no way to procure any other granulation. Of course I'd be a little leery as to the size of the charge I'd use--start small and work my way up.

 

[RAEDWALD]

From what I have read, larger grain powder will fracture upon firing, creating smaller grains before the ignition. So a portion of 3f charge will become smaller before it ignites.

Bo T. Could you provide references for this fracturing? As I understand it decent dense powder grains remain whole and burn down from their surface but I am always prepared to change my belief when faced with new facts.

 

[Britsmoothy]

You know when you see YouTubers bouncing the ram rod up and down on the ball or bullet......I wonder what grain size their powder has been converted to!

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Could you provide references for this fracturing? As I understand it decent dense powder grains remain whole and burn down from their surface but I am always prepared to change my belief when faced with new facts.

There are those folks who have shot over snow or over a white bed sheet who claim to have found unburnt powder that has not reduced in size.....<LD shrugs his shoulders>

LD

 

[FishDFly]

There are those folks who have shot over snow or over a white bed sheet who claim to have found unburnt powder that has not reduced in size.....<LD shrugs his shoulders>

LD

This has subject has been debated here for ever with no conclusive proof either way.

What I find in testing about the subject is that in Walter Cline's book, he mentions the same thing, so it is not a new subject at all.

I read somewhere that some indoor ranges stopped the letting folks use black powder due to build up of unburned black powder in front of the firing line.

You can read about anything any where.