We had the NRA do an inspection of our indoor range, and they told us we should not be shooting black powder indoors because the un-burned powder builds up and could cause a flash fire. We stopped shooting black powder indoors, not because we were afraid of fire, but because the exhaust system did not remove the smoke fast enough.
Opinions? 4F in a .32 Crockett?
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RAEDWALD
40 Cal.
not to argue one way or another: the reports of the like of the Greeners, father and (more rigorously) son, indicate that the solid ejecta is formed of condensed fouling. Myself I have found (from cheap powder) tiny globules of solidified sulphur which, when separated, did burn briefly with a red flame when lit. As to opinion, as opposed to evidence, I am of the opinion that the conditions in the barrel are inimicable to the survival of powder save if one used very coarse grains in very short barrels. But I am no authority and have no personal evidence to back that up. However the thread is about 4f in a 32 rifle.
Ned Roberts wrote of percussion rifles in the .32 class and observed fine and coarse powders being used. He recommended as coarse a powder as will do the job. I am in no position to comment adversely but I would try 4f in a light load at up to 50 metres. Ned was speaking of more like 200 metres generally. But who truly knows. Nearly all of the matters he discusses from the mouths of the experts of the late 19th century are still argued about today.Fine or coarse. Gentle primer or strong, paper patched or grease grooved, etc. When you go back to the day of backwoods muzzleloading rifles of the late 19th century and early 20th century in rural USA, they were more like .32 than the modern common small .45 calibre.
Crocketts seem to have vanished off the European market for the last year or two and never appear on the second hand market.
RAEDWALD
40 Cal.
As I understand it, the unburned powder hazard was not from black powder but smokeless building up on the floor of badly managed indoor ranges. They have been known to ignite with no black powder ever being used. Was there not a major incident at a Brazilian police range not long ago?
My friend does that and I ask why? Steady pressure is what you want or you just beat the ball. I don't know what it does to the powder but it can't be good. FFFFG is like a fast pistol or shotgun powder, instant pressure and higher at the start. A small caliber might be OK, lots of metal around the breech. I use a lot of FFFFG for pan powder only.
BP is pretty tough and I never found fines in the bottom of cans after shipping by rail or truck. But Pyrodex breaks so I sift it to remove fines or accuracy goes away when you get near the bottom. Sift might be the wrong word but I run it through a fine mess cloth and there is a LOT of dust.
True, I have always had heated discussions with modern guns and smokeless that all powder does not burn in an inch. Talking to powder makers I got good answers that even a fast pistol powder will leave unburned powder in a shooting tube so they have to clean often. The ideal was to have all powder gone at about 3" from the muzzle. BP does not ignite and burn as fast so barrels were longer.
Our tests have shown too much BP for the barrel will blow plugs out like flares and reduce velocities because the charge adds too much to bullet weight. BP in a gun does not explode but the speed of burn of FFFFG is scary. Anyway I would use FFFG in a small caliber and FFG in a .45 and up.
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bitsoomthy, when you post it is like im posting or dare to. you have more knowledge than most. hard place to be isnt it. you know what is what and have more balls than i do. thanks, thanks, thanks.
Pardon?
Re the knowledge....I have nothing on all the skilled builders here. The match winners, the leather workers, knife makers and Taylor's.
I on the other hand is just a woods bum.
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your way more than you claim you are. saw it from the first. thanks
hanshi
Cannon
Not to get into the "unburned" powder debate, but even experienced, expert builders, etc. cling to what someone told them and who was told the same thing and on and on. So what any of us believe is irrelevant since what actually occurs is, well, what occurs and won't change just because we believe A or B. 
Comfortably_Numb
The Evil Mike Brooks
bitsoomthy, when you post it is like im posting or dare to. you have more knowledge than most. hard place to be isnt it. you know what is what and have more balls than i do. thanks, thanks, thanks.
This is typical behavior after BHB has been in trouble with mods. Seen it before.
BlackHillsBob isn't in trouble with any of the moderators or the administration.
He was just giving a compliment to Britsmoothy in his own unique way.
Back to the 4F in .32 Crocketts.
He was just giving a compliment to Britsmoothy in his own unique way.
Back to the 4F in .32 Crocketts.
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thanks, i have the utmost respect for him, he is the top of the line.
Comfortably_Numb
The Evil Mike Brooks
Well, I'm not going to argue about it, he just turns into everybody's friend after he's been in a scuffle. No big deal to me one way or another, just an observation. Sorry I brought it up.
I'm hoping that I interpreted the information correctly, https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a150455.pdf , I went through the report rather quickly as I had work to do.
RAEDWALD
40 Cal.
Thank you for that Bo T for that report. Reading through it I do note that it is (quite correctly) focussed upon US Army needs and not sporting ones. For example using graphite glazing for protection from damp, dense hardwood charcoal and the use of a jet mill instead of classic heavy rollers. However that may be, it does not affect the issue in hand. The fracture increasing burning area is noted as one hypothesis but it also states that the difference to other hypotheses was not resolved. Sporting powders (such as the best available, Swiss) endeavour to avoid fracturing through density and thorough incorporation. Personally I doubt the fracture hypothesis.
Determining mechanisms is difficult and subject to much debate. And ultimately, does not answer the question regarding the safety of using 4f powder as a main charge. Perhaps someone with time and money could answer the questions underlying the broad range of suggestions offered. I have found little information on experimental pressure curves for different grain sizes and charges of black powder.
ugly old guy
40 Cal
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All I can say is I had a smooth bore four shot .32 calibure pepperbox kit many years ago.
The manufacturer recommended 10 to 15 grains FFFg powder under a .31 prb.
Based on that, I personally, would not use FFFFg as the main charge in anything.
The manufacturer recommended 10 to 15 grains FFFg powder under a .31 prb.
Based on that, I personally, would not use FFFFg as the main charge in anything.
Solid plug like in an unmentionable I would bet
Don’t remember specifically trying it in a 32, but I have used ffff in handguns and some 45 caliber flintlock and caplock rifles. Nothing remarkable was noted. No buildings collapsed nor did the earth open up. For what is worth I know that when Lyman tested revolver loads for the data in their Black Powder Hanbook back in the 1970s they tested with both fff and ffff. Not for rifle data, but still used in pistols without worry or extra caution.
Pulled down an original Smith Carbine round years ago and remember the powder we found was finer than the ffff we had. Now the Smith an early attemp at a breech loading cartridge gun, so not sure of significance in powders used in muzzleloaders, back in the day or now. Just an observation.
When I was starting years ago, the ‘rule’ from gun makers was ffff for priming, fff for main charge in 45 caliber and under, ff above 45 caliber. Interesting that today I generally use fff for all my 32, 45, 50, 54, 58 and 62 caliber rifles plus 12 gauge shotguns. I may use different powder for a particular gun if there performance improvement, but typically not the case.
Pulled down an original Smith Carbine round years ago and remember the powder we found was finer than the ffff we had. Now the Smith an early attemp at a breech loading cartridge gun, so not sure of significance in powders used in muzzleloaders, back in the day or now. Just an observation.
When I was starting years ago, the ‘rule’ from gun makers was ffff for priming, fff for main charge in 45 caliber and under, ff above 45 caliber. Interesting that today I generally use fff for all my 32, 45, 50, 54, 58 and 62 caliber rifles plus 12 gauge shotguns. I may use different powder for a particular gun if there performance improvement, but typically not the case.
Rat
50 Cal.
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The powder in black powder cartridges is often very much crushed, often up to 1/4" to get a better burn and more accuracy. Sometimes when someone dissects an old BP cartridge, they state: "the powder had turned into a solid pellet". Nope, it was compacted when loaded. That would be an even smaller grain size than ffffg, if any grain even remained. However, I don't know of any, or if there are any '73 Colts or M73 Springfield rifles that have been blown up with black powder. ??
