Opinions About Barrel Wear - PRB's Vs. Conicals
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I can speculate patches may increase barrel wear that Fadala observed due to dirt, dust etc. embeded in the patch. I carry my patch material loose in my shooting bag most of the time. It is not unlikely that some dirt and other stuff gets embedded in the cloth and adds a some abrasive quality to the cloth. It may over time degrade the rifling, but probably take more shots than I normally shoot to be significant.
I have noticed that the bluing is still there in my bore after about 1000 rounds of prb's on my GPR and bluing basically has no thickness. So if the bluing is still there after 1000 rounds, then I don't think much wear is occurring.
There are lots of folks who do not agree with Sam Fadala on some of his theories.
I know a fellow who has 2 T/C Hawken's (percussion and flint) with Green Mountain 1 in 66 twist barrels in 45 caliber . He keeps fairly good records on the number of shots through his rifles and he shoots a lot. He only shoots round balls in line matches and only uses Teflon patching.
After his eye sight started failing and he had to quit line matches. He figured that he had put around 20,000 balls through each rifle. The rifles were still accurate and he was still winning national matches when he quit.
There are folks who have been shooting heavy bench rifles for years and they are still accurate. They are shooting .58 cal. with 230 grains of powder. If you are going to wear out a barrel they would do it. Bill Large barreled rifles still bring a premium price.
"I have noticed that the bluing is still there in my bore after about 1000 rounds of prb's on my GPR and bluing basically has no thickness"
My chrome lined barrels show no signs of wear.
I know a fellow who has 2 T/C Hawken's (percussion and flint) with Green Mountain 1 in 66 twist barrels in 45 caliber . He keeps fairly good records on the number of shots through his rifles and he shoots a lot. He only shoots round balls in line matches and only uses Teflon patching.
After his eye sight started failing and he had to quit line matches. He figured that he had put around 20,000 balls through each rifle. The rifles were still accurate and he was still winning national matches when he quit.
There are folks who have been shooting heavy bench rifles for years and they are still accurate. They are shooting .58 cal. with 230 grains of powder. If you are going to wear out a barrel they would do it. Bill Large barreled rifles still bring a premium price.
"I have noticed that the bluing is still there in my bore after about 1000 rounds of prb's on my GPR and bluing basically has no thickness"
My chrome lined barrels show no signs of wear.
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I feel confident in saying Sam Fadala's early (circa 1979) writings are a sad waste of ink and not fit to line a bird cage.
I haven't wasted my time or money on his later writing... perhaps he took time to read Ned Roberts or Walter Cline and may have something of value to say.
I haven't wasted my time or money on his later writing... perhaps he took time to read Ned Roberts or Walter Cline and may have something of value to say.
"I haven't wasted my time or money on his later writing... perhaps he took time to read Ned Roberts or Walter Cline and may have something of value to say."
Sage advice, I would add Eric Bye's book on Flintlocks as worth while.
Sage advice, I would add Eric Bye's book on Flintlocks as worth while.
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Fish, there are MANY great writers on the topic of Black Powder and Muzzle Loaders....Sam Fadala...IMHO, Isn't one of them.
Other then the ramrod I don't think you will ever, wear a ML barrel. However I knew Bill Large, the premium barrel maker of the time. He told me a PRB barrel will shoot smooth and the ball needs some friction or accuracy falls off. Old timers would pour urine down the bore to etch it over night. If any of you ever tried to get a chrome plated bore to shoot, you will understand.
arcticap
54 Cal.
I'd like to think that Sam Fadala was being honest about his experience and test results that he published, but anything is possible.
As mentioned in the opening post, not every experience or opinion is expected to be the same just like every barrel, powder and projectile is different.
I've been reading a 2017 thread with posts by some long rifle builders on the American Longrifles Forum titled "So... barrel steel discussion here?"
The discussion centers around the fact that many of the small premier US long rifle barrel makers are using 12L14 steel to make their barrels with.
Yet 12L14 steel is not recognized by metallurgists or recommended by the steel industry itself as a bona fide gun barrel steel. [See the letter below]
There are much better gun barrel steels, but 12L14 is used for its machinabilty and because it's less expensive than recognized gun barrel steel.
And just like the fact that it officially has a lower threshold of strength, it can also have less wear and abrasion resistance than other recognized modern gun barrel steels.
I don't really know what type of steel that Sam Fadala's gun barrels were made from.
And It's possible that the barrel steel used in some mass production guns is actually better and more durable than used in some expensive custom guns.
Another interesting fact that I've learned is that when steel is alloyed there can be inclusions or sections of unevenly distributed alloyed material which
in the case of 12L14 it is alloyed with lead, among other elements.
Who knew that so many 12L14 long rifle barrels are alloyed with lead to increase its machinablity?
I certainly didn't know.
Posted by Dphariss Post 8465 --->>> http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43037.0
As mentioned in the opening post, not every experience or opinion is expected to be the same just like every barrel, powder and projectile is different.
I've been reading a 2017 thread with posts by some long rifle builders on the American Longrifles Forum titled "So... barrel steel discussion here?"
The discussion centers around the fact that many of the small premier US long rifle barrel makers are using 12L14 steel to make their barrels with.
Yet 12L14 steel is not recognized by metallurgists or recommended by the steel industry itself as a bona fide gun barrel steel. [See the letter below]
There are much better gun barrel steels, but 12L14 is used for its machinabilty and because it's less expensive than recognized gun barrel steel.
And just like the fact that it officially has a lower threshold of strength, it can also have less wear and abrasion resistance than other recognized modern gun barrel steels.
I don't really know what type of steel that Sam Fadala's gun barrels were made from.
And It's possible that the barrel steel used in some mass production guns is actually better and more durable than used in some expensive custom guns.
Another interesting fact that I've learned is that when steel is alloyed there can be inclusions or sections of unevenly distributed alloyed material which
in the case of 12L14 it is alloyed with lead, among other elements.
Who knew that so many 12L14 long rifle barrels are alloyed with lead to increase its machinablity?
I certainly didn't know.
Posted by Dphariss Post 8465 --->>> http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=43037.0
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I think that patched round balls and black powder are not hard on or wear out barrels. I believe the ramrod or wiping stick is more detrimental to the barrel, and mostly at the muzzle. I always use the brass muzzle protector on the rod I clean with and what I use at the range. I'm curious as to how many of us use the muzzle protector. I don't see many other than myself that use them.
As for actual barrel wear, heat, pressure, and bullet material are more the culprit.
As for actual barrel wear, heat, pressure, and bullet material are more the culprit.
"I'm curious as to how many of us use the muzzle protector.
All the line shooters I know use them and I have one on each range rod that I have.
I did use brass muzzle protectors and have now moved onto plastic. I feel that they provide more protection.
All the line shooters I know use them and I have one on each range rod that I have.
I did use brass muzzle protectors and have now moved onto plastic. I feel that they provide more protection.
I too use a muzzle protector at the range and on trail walks. I forego the protector when hunting. I use brass, plastic (derlin) and rubber muzzle protectors depending on the caliber of the gun I am shooting and the size (diameter) of the ram rod or range rod.
Only time I may not use a muzzle protector is when hunting and need a quick reload, but even when hunting, typically use one. Why risk messing up the very last thing touching the bullet or RB as you shoot that could impact accuracy?
That's what the L stands for in 12L14. The only reason to use that material is ease of machining, longer tool life and better finish. 4140 is a lot stronger barrel material, but it is harder on the tooling and requires more work to get a better finish.
Idaho Ron
58 Cal.
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While I am no expert in the subject I am willing to give my .02
I honestly believe that there are more barrels shooting conical's that are scrapped do to poor accuracy because failure to adequately clean the lead deposits than actual wear. A lubed lead bullet would have little if any wear from the lead. Yes the fouling could add to some wear, I could see that if a guy never cleaned between shots.
What has not been addressed is wear from Paper Patches. There is a lot of different types of paper being used for patching. The BPCR shooters have looked for paper with low ash levels for many years. The lower ash levels were to help with reducing wear on barrels.
I honestly don't know the ash levels of the paper I use. It is very old 25% cotton air mail paper. That said I have been shooting paper patched bullets for a decade. The guns I shoot them in are as accurate as they have ever been. Endoscope pictures show now worrisome problems.
I would worry less about wear and more about proper cleaning when using Naked conical's.
I honestly believe that there are more barrels shooting conical's that are scrapped do to poor accuracy because failure to adequately clean the lead deposits than actual wear. A lubed lead bullet would have little if any wear from the lead. Yes the fouling could add to some wear, I could see that if a guy never cleaned between shots.
What has not been addressed is wear from Paper Patches. There is a lot of different types of paper being used for patching. The BPCR shooters have looked for paper with low ash levels for many years. The lower ash levels were to help with reducing wear on barrels.
I honestly don't know the ash levels of the paper I use. It is very old 25% cotton air mail paper. That said I have been shooting paper patched bullets for a decade. The guns I shoot them in are as accurate as they have ever been. Endoscope pictures show now worrisome problems.
I would worry less about wear and more about proper cleaning when using Naked conical's.
One of trad muzzleloadings dirty little secrets. Most don't know anything about this. 12l14 barrels are generally safe but there have been reported failure incidents. Don't go overboard with projectile weight and powder charge and you'll be fine. This issue has gone round and round for years on another popular longrifle forum. Some of those members refuse to shoot barrels made from 12l14.
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Based on my own barrel probing and cleaning, I have no doubt you're right about naked conicals Idaho Ron. Anyone with experience shooting swaged lead bullets from modern handguns at more than about 750 fps can verify the leading and how tough it is to get it ALL out. And those aren't even pure lead! And here we are talking about pushing pure lead at over 1k. I've tried a lot of lubes on modern swaged bullets with marginal to poor results for all. The biggest difference with revolvers you can SEE all that lead. With muzzleloaders, you're guessing what's going on down in the bottom of the pipe. I've bought or been given a number of barrels "shot out" by conical shooters. Suits me, because my cleaning job appears to be better than theirs and I get a perfectly fine barrel in the deal for nothing or next to nothing.
I have also taken in some barrels that have shot conicals that the owner said were shot out. The endo-scope showed heavy deposits of lead in the grooves. I scrubbed them with a bronze brush and patch soaked with bore cleaner, then I had a brain fart. Why don't I use the electrolysis cleaner I use to removed lead from my handguns. I hooked up the rod with "O" rings, plugged the nipple bolster, filled up the barrel with the lead remover fluid, hooked up the juice and let her rip. An hour later I removed the rod that was covered with a heavy deposit of lead. I wiped it off and repeated the process. Took about 4 cycles before the rod was coming out clean. The bore was sparkling bright, and no deposits were visible with the scope. I found this the best, and easiest, way to remove lead deposits from muzzleloader barrels. When ever I come across a barrel that seems to have lost it's accuracy, I give this a try first. It has worked pretty well for me.
Maybe a bit more traditional, but not considered safe, Mercury quickly removes lead from a gun barrel. The good old days, when we ran with scissors and cars didn’t have seatbelts.
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