Opinions on Tip Curtis gun?

[Leatherbark]

I bought an early Virgina from him at Friendship several weeks ago. Mine was totally in the white, but the inletting and touchhole was perfect. The sights were already square notched for my old eyes. I used 5 coats of Plumb Brown on the barrel and steel parts and they look like they have been painted with brown paint (follow the directions). I finished the stock this past week and now I'm ready for the range. I've had too many horror stories buying muzzleloaders through the mail. I had to see what I'm buying up front. And if it shoots halfway as good as it looks I'll be satisfied. Mine has a Colerain "C" weight in 50/100 inch caliber with round bottom rifling.

I used the Birchwood Casey Plumb brown this time because the humidity is not high enough here to rust a barrel quickly without a sweat box.

Tip Curtis was one nice guy and I really enjoyed talking with him.

Bob

 

[BadHorse]

"tg you are unaware of a lot of things'

I never claimed anything other, providing the period reference for claims dealing with specific methods and pricing in such detail is usually a more accepted and helpfull method of response than amatureish snipes, but some are forced to work with what little they have in the way of providing anything valid and from a reliable period source to go towards any educational enlightenment and sharing KNOWN factual period sources from the past I guess, contemporary sources are another story in of themselves as we often see here, BTW I am at the worst mildly amused at attempts to insult me or one up me with shaky historical interpretations of things based on little if any serious research or any solid historical knowledge base.

if i was trying to insult you it would be absolutely clear. that wasnt my intent. and the above references just show your limited knowledge at others expense

 

[tg]

I did not give any references and have little concern for your thoughts of me or my level of knowledge, I would comfortabley stand beside you and be judged by our peers on our individual merits of knowldege on historical matters relevant to this forum,and I am still seriously intersted in the period references to the usage of vinigar as a barrel treatment in the past and the cost of the same, that was the gist of my first post... inquireing about period sources about this type of gun finishes usage "back then" and when "back then" in that context was, sorry if it was not a question you deemed worthy or suitable to answer with something other than an unimaginative wisecrack.

 

[Mike Brooks]

if i was trying to insult you it would be absolutely clear. that wasnt my intent. and the above references just show your limited knowledge at others expense

What have you been reading to accelerate your knowledge so? Weren't you just a beginer a couple years ago?

 

[Capt. Jas.]

the man has forgotten more about building these rifles than any one on this forum ever knew.


back then there were three ways to have your gun finished, there was metal in the white like yours and my rifles. this was the most practical. you could have your metal with a vinegar finish, that cost .50 cents, or you could have them browned. that cost about $2.00! that was a lot of money back then, a rifle cost about $25.00. thats about a years wages for a farmer. the average person did not get a rifle with a browned barrel. HE COULDNT AFFORD IT! that $25 was for a base model, no carving, no engraving, metal in the white.

Well I guess I think we need some back up information on both comments. (no disrespect to Tip)

 

[gizamo]

Tip definitely has forgotten more than this Child with ever know... :grin:

I am fortunate to have a smaller gauge fusil of his, in my collection. It is up there with the very best custom builders of the past decades. His work is outstanding.

 

[rich pierce]

This discussion of the pricing of rifles at different stages of completion and decoration is getting far from the original topic but is more interesting to me.

Period accounts of pricing and features of guns obtained in quantity for the trade to native Americans or whomever, are good sources indicating there were significant price variations between different grades of guns, and that specific criteria determined the prices of trade guns(quality of lock, smooth or rifled barrels, the quality and decoration of the mounts, barrel length, etc). I have not seen in the Sir William Johnson papers or papers from fur trade companies, specification for guns of the same sort to be furnished in the white, with a vinegar finish on the metal, or "browned". In general the practice is similar to those we see today for all sorts of goods: cheaper goods used cheaper parts and did not have as many fancy features, but some basics are expected no matter the price. So even a cheap Carolina gun would often have a blued barrel and some engraving. On the other hand, expensive muskets were often provided with bright barrels and locks; they expected the soldiers to maintain them well, and the bright guns in the sunlight made a spectacle.

The other premise, that a person (Tip Curtiss) forgot more than anyone here ever knew, cannot be tested using current technology. If the intent of the statement was to express admiration for Tip, well done, I'll raise a glass with you.

 

[tg]

Sorry for the distraction 'Benz, I should have known better to ask for details considering the situation and source, That is a fine gun,I have never heard anyone to be unhappy with Tips parts or products.

 

[Stumpkiller]

If you joined the military you might get a gun "in the white". I doubt as a civilian you could pry an unfinished firearm away from a gunsmith.

$25 would be a princely Pennnsylvania Rifle. in 1861 a Springfield (state of the art military weapon) cost the Gov't $20 each.

 

[Frank/Pa]

Tip Curtis makes excellent rifles. This one is a steal at $1100. Grab it. You will not be sorry.

 

[tg]

"$25 would be a princely Pennnsylvania Rifle."

I did not want to say any more but as I did mention the "when" is a factor here as well, that gun looks 18th century to me though I may be wrong, as the well made iron furniture would suggest a later date, but using later furniture on 18th centur guns is now popular and not to far back into the 18th century one would pay for a gun in pounds not dollars, the late Ketland lock would probably not put this gun there however, I have seen an advertisment for blueing, browning and Japanning of barrels from the early 1780's as I recall, though browning was done earlier in some situations I believe, it is amazing how they could afford to send a gun barrel all the way to Japan back then,to be finished, huh? just some more poor references to show my extreme lack of knowledge of such things, luckily there are those much smarter around to help us out with such things

 

[123.DieselBenz]

When I talked with Tip today, he said most all his guns were sold in the white for $1095.00

So ... With that in mind, at this moment I think I'm gonna pass on this one, and swing by his shop, and put some in my hands, and up to my shoulder, and I won't need to wait for tvm to build me one for more money!

Thank you ALL for your input

 

[Frank/Pa]

You need to be aware of Tip's definition of in the white. It is not the same as the flintlock pictured here. The stock and metal components need final sanding/filing/polishing. The Colerain barrel will need draw filing before browning or blueing. The stock is not stained, nor has any finish been applied. I bought one of his in the white guns at Dixon's gun fair and seen a bunch more. They are well put together, but still need a lot of work.

 

[tg]

Good point Frank there can be quite a few man hours of work between an in the white gun and a gun with an just unfinished barrel and furniture anyhows,'Benz, good luck to you with whatever you choose in a gun, you have a good plan to put some guns to the shoulder and eye before making a buy that will give you a terrific advantage in making a choice over going in blind so to speak :thumbsup:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Unless you seal all the surfaces of a gun stock, with stock finish, then coat them with wax, You don't want to be "Oiling" the underside of your barrel or any other metal part. You don't have to stain all the end grain( Muzzle, and butt stock, or front wall of the tang), nor do you need to stain the mortise for the barrel, side lock, lock, patch box, trigger guard, or toe plate, and pipes. But, you want to Seal the wood everywhere to prevent water and oil from entering the wood stock at any location.

Once the barrel mortise is finished, you can coat your barrel with a good grease- RIG works, but so does most other greases that have high melting points. I have a 110 year old rifle that has water pump grease- yeah, the same thing that mechanics use to seal your Car's water pump--- in the barrel mortise, and its protected the gorgeous blue finish on the underside of that stock all that time. There are Synthetic greases on the market that would also make a good choice to protect the underside of the barrel and tang from Rust due to moisture invasion.

You are doing the right thing by visiting Tip's shop. I have seen his traveling trailer both at Dixon's, and at Friendship, and have drooled over many of his guns. He even has an occasional rifle with the lock on the correct side! :shocked2: :rotf: :grin:

He does Not sell problems. Expect to save at least $300.00 by doing your own finishing work on any "in-the-white" gun you buy. I have bought all kinds of components from him over the years and a nicer guy you simply are not going to meet. Id you want an exact copy of some historical rifle, he will build it for you. Otherwise, he tends to make what sells- not what is necessarily HC to everyone else's POV. There are lots of arguments at Friendship among collectors and dealers about what is and what is NOT HC- it never stops.

When I see the same dogmas expressed on this forum, I just move on. You simply are not going to change some of these "experts", unless you put a gun in their very hands, and pry their eyes open with toothpicks, while someone puts their hearing aids in for them. Its not worth fussing about here, for sure.

 

[Capt. Jas.]

Benz,

As stated by Frank, you will see UNFINISHED "in the white" guns at Tip's and you are comparing their price with the price of the gun at the top of thread which appears to be a FINISHED gun with a super piece of wood.

 

[123.DieselBenz]

Yes, Capt I understand that.

I also understand that if I go straight to Tip, I can get a gun with a longer LOP.

I have the money to buy one finished from tvm, but there are two things I don't really like with that(even though my wife really encouraged me to go that route)
1. Gotta wait 6-9 months
2. They charge an EXTRA $250 for a swamped barrel, when it does not cost more than $50 over the cost of a straight barrel ... I understand that there maybe some extra, or at least different fitting involved.

BTW tvm gives a deduction of $100 for there guns in the white ...


I'm 6'1" tall with long arms & neck, I make my T/C Seneca work, but

 

[123.DieselBenz]

Continued ...

But if I could get one with a longer LOP, it is worth it to me. I believe I'm up to cosmetically finishing a gun, as I got a striped down stock on a gun for my wife, with a bad muzzle that had been "cleaned out" as in no rifiling left! I made a few practice cuts, and ended up taking 3.75" off, which makes it a nice carbine model for her, I also took 1.75" off the butt to fit her ... And then oil finnished it for her, she out shot me at Appleseed with it! :redface:

 

[Mike Brooks]

Are we even sure that Tip actually makes these rifles himself? I would suspect that is all farmed out..... I know I'm incapable of that volume of work, even as fast as I am. :idunno:
Not that it makes any difference.

 

[Birddog6]

ANYONE that has a chance to go to Tips shop, should.... :thumbsup: I guarantee you it will not be a 15 minute stop, you will be there for Hours... He has an inventory you can only dream of living next door to, and most likely will have 75+ rifles there on the rack ready for you to try out & shoulder...... We are speaking of Hundreds of precarves stocks, barrels, locks & bin after bin after bin of misc. parts. If Tip don't have it, it is probably not made or you don't need it.

I have know Tip for years..... Bought many many many parts from him for Years..... He has always been cordial, fair & honest with me & backed up what he sold me as well.

I stop by there 3-4 times a year, he is always nice to visit with. The great thing is you can Hand Pick ALL the parts to build a rifle & lay it out right there in front of you on the counter, choose dif buttplates, trim, sights, barrels, lay it all right there in front of you... need a lock, he'll have dozens...of them to choose from, do it all RIGHT THEN & know what you are getting.......

As far as what ya get for your $ on a rifle there, nobody can touch it. (IMHO) He buys in mass volumes & thus can sell you a In-the-White rifle for less than most can.

No, you can't compare his $1095 rifle to a $3500 finished one. But I think you WILL get more than you paid for getting a rifle from him.

Keith Lisle