Original Brown Bess. Nice pics.

[John Spartan]

But if you want to get any closer you’ll need to save your lunch money.
Anyway supposedly an untouched, unmodified original Long Land.
Posted for the close-up pictures of it.

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...aughan-dated-1731-with-skirted-bottom-bayonet

 

[Flintfan69]

Others will chime in, but the buttplate and stock do not appear "pattern". Maybe a re-stock, or private contract?

 

[John Spartan]

Wish I knew enough to offer an opinion. Still learning the Bess but… @dave_person
@Loyalist Dave

 

[RIDE-RED350R]

Wow! What an amazing piece of history! Thanks for sharing

 

[MIKE1776]

Where do I send the check ???

 

[hawkeye2]

IMA has some creative writers doing their copy, take some of it with a grain of salt.

 

[wganz]

Remember a show about that peculiar island across the pond, and some castle has multiple 40' tall stacks of Brown Bess's. Just layer after layer after layer.

 

[toot]

Where do I send the check ???

to the dead letter box!.

 

[BradBrownBess]

There actually was a Flixton Hall with just a handful of original Bess muskets and pole arms. It has a long history. Williamsburg ended up with 90% of those guns - they were basically untouched - they are the only original 1730 muskets known with maybe a few exceptions in private hands (less than 5). Flixton Hall was a wealthy man's lodge and in the Victorian era it was fashionable to decorate with armor and old arms at the time. Keith Neal got them and sold to Williamsburg. IMA will occasionally use the "probably came from" Flixton Hall. Christian Cranmer who has turned the business over to his son, did go to Napal and get a huge stash of Indian Pattern (circa 1800) guns, cannons, flints, musket balls, you name it. He filmed it all. It's actually a great story as there was a civil war there at the time - he was able to get them during a break in the war but there was a lot of hassle. I have the DVD and book - it's a real story.
That Particular Brown Bess that is listed for 59K - I'm going to say using my books and what I know - has a lot of issues. The first glaring issue is the Shield on the bayonet - its 100% wrong. If the musket is not a complete restock (which it may be) it looks to have been 100% British bright cleaned, then some other restoration work done. Why the barrel end has a smattering of brown rust I dont know when the rest of the gun looks new??? I don't know exactly what, but "in my eyes and knowledge" I will say - that would be something you better go there in person, know 100% what you are looking for, bring the right tools (bright light LED, 50x mag, Black Light, Endoscope, and whatever else you need. YES - their writing in descriptions can be WAY more than creative.
They will return no questions asked in 3 - 5 days I think but when you are talking 59K - why ship - fly up there. Call first and ask for Christian. LOTS and LOTS of ??????? of that gun ESPECIALLY at that asking price.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
That gun is a restock or fake. First, let's get something straight. The date on the lock is when the lock was made not the musket. The musket may be made or "set up" years later. Second, that is no early pattern 1730 Brown Bess stock. I suspect at best it is a colonial restock and at worst an intentionally made fake. Even the proof marks on the barrel look fake and there should be more marks on the barrel, tang, and on the wood.
dave

 

[PathfinderNC]

There actually was a Flixton Hall with just a handful of original Bess muskets and pole arms. It has a long history. Williamsburg ended up with 90% of those guns - they were basically untouched - they are the only original 1730 muskets known with maybe a few exceptions in private hands (less than 5). Flixton Hall was a wealthy man's lodge and in the Victorian era it was fashionable to decorate with armor and old arms at the time. Keith Neal got them and sold to Williamsburg. IMA will occasionally use the "probably came from" Flixton Hall. Christian Cranmer who has turned the business over to his son, did go to Napal and get a huge stash of Indian Pattern (circa 1800) guns, cannons, flints, musket balls, you name it. He filmed it all. It's actually a great story as there was a civil war there at the time - he was able to get them during a break in the war but there was a lot of hassle. I have the DVD and book - it's a real story.
That Particular Brown Bess that is listed for 59K - I'm going to say using my books and what I know - has a lot of issues. The first glaring issue is the Shield on the bayonet - its 100% wrong. If the musket is not a complete restock (which it may be) it looks to have been 100% British bright cleaned, then some other restoration work done. Why the barrel end has a smattering of brown rust I dont know when the rest of the gun looks new??? I don't know exactly what, but "in my eyes and knowledge" I will say - that would be something you better go there in person, know 100% what you are looking for, bring the right tools (bright light LED, 50x mag, Black Light, Endoscope, and whatever else you need. YES - their writing in descriptions can be WAY more than creative.
They will return no questions asked in 3 - 5 days I think but when you are talking 59K - why ship - fly up there. Call first and ask for Christian. LOTS and LOTS of ??????? of that gun ESPECIALLY at that asking price.

Here is a sixty minute documentary about the thirty year quest by Christian Cranmer owner of International Military Antiques to rescue the contents of the Royal Arsenal of Nepal and over 300 years worth of Antique weapons.

 

[GREENSWLDE]

Engraving on Barrel tooks too crisp for age.. Why are the Proof marks on the lock "X"ed out??

 

[BradBrownBess]

Dave Person is 100% correct. There is VERY little on this gun to suggest its a "slightly cleaned" pristine example. The barrel etching, the proofs, the carving, the bayonet, it's all wrong!
I will say I bought from Paul Ambrose a gun that was a reported original1742 Brown Bess. I went through LOT of pictures and discussions before purchase at a high price. I got the gun - and luckily it was broken in shipping (not put in a wood or plastic box as I asked it be). Hairline Cracked under the lock. That gun was taken to a gun builder by me in person and repaired. It was not until I got the repaired gun home and finally got it in very good lighting and went through it with all my tools and knowledge that I realized something was very wrong. I had to remove a barrel band - then - I saw the wood underneath was brand new (as in less than 10 years old at the most). The entire gun 100% was a fake - front to back. a damn good fake - best I have ever seen. "Attic in the black" as they say - had every bell and whistle you could want on a gun of that make. Even the mortise was fake aged, slight rot, powder burn, etc. Even with a final full refund I lost a lot of my time, sleep, driving the gun 4 hours to get crack fixed, hundreds for the repair,etc. Even the gun repairer did not catch the fake - he just focused on the crack and repaired it - and it was a very, small crack - not exposing a lot of wood.
Long story short - FAKE FAKE FAKE muskets, Kentuckys, Civil War numbers marked gun, swords, etc are flooding the market and some are very good. I suspect they are coming from Eastern Europe or India/Pakistan or maybe China. These people and cultures have thousands of years of metal and wood craft and technique and in the poor areas - a man can spent 200 hours making a fake from all the details given on the internet, and to him - if he gets 2500 - 5000+ he makes a year's wage plus a lot.
Be very, very, very careful as I will tell you there are few dealers and almost no auction houses that go over their stock with a fine-toothed comb. You must do that yourself or get a buyers agent (I do now on auctions).
Last year the 2 Civil War shows in GA I attended were 50% fakes and junk. I was shocked. Covid caused the best of the best to get bought at insane prices and that brought out the fakers in droves.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Where do I send the check ???

Send it to me in the form of a certified bank check. I'll see that they get it. Really I will.

 

[springfield art]

But if you want to get any closer you’ll need to save your lunch money.
Anyway supposedly an untouched, unmodified original Long Land.
Posted for the close-up pictures of it.

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/or...aughan-dated-1731-with-skirted-bottom-bayonet

Cheeze, you'd think for 60 grand, they'd throw the Cert. of Auth. in for FREE!

 

[John Spartan]

Cheeze, you'd think for 60 grand, they'd throw the Cert. of Auth. in for FREE!

Ha! I thought exactly the same thing!

 

[John Spartan]

Dave Person is 100% correct. There is VERY little on this gun to suggest its a "slightly cleaned" pristine example. The barrel etching, the proofs, the carving, the bayonet, it's all wrong!
I will say I bought from Paul Ambrose a gun that was a reported original1742 Brown Bess. I went through LOT of pictures and discussions before purchase at a high price. I got the gun - and luckily it was broken in shipping (not put in a wood or plastic box as I asked it be). Hairline Cracked under the lock. That gun was taken to a gun builder by me in person and repaired. It was not until I got the repaired gun home and finally got it in very good lighting and went through it with all my tools and knowledge that I realized something was very wrong. I had to remove a barrel band - then - I saw the wood underneath was brand new (as in less than 10 years old at the most). The entire gun 100% was a fake - front to back. a damn good fake - best I have ever seen. "Attic in the black" as they say - had every bell and whistle you could want on a gun of that make. Even the mortise was fake aged, slight rot, powder burn, etc. Even with a final full refund I lost a lot of my time, sleep, driving the gun 4 hours to get crack fixed, hundreds for the repair,etc. Even the gun repairer did not catch the fake - he just focused on the crack and repaired it - and it was a very, small crack - not exposing a lot of wood.
Long story short - FAKE FAKE FAKE muskets, Kentuckys, Civil War numbers marked gun, swords, etc are flooding the market and some are very good. I suspect they are coming from Eastern Europe or India/Pakistan or maybe China. These people and cultures have thousands of years of metal and wood craft and technique and in the poor areas - a man can spent 200 hours making a fake from all the details given on the internet, and to him - if he gets 2500 - 5000+ he makes a year's wage plus a lot.
Be very, very, very careful as I will tell you there are few dealers and almost no auction houses that go over their stock with a fine-toothed comb. You must do that yourself or get a buyers agent (I do now on auctions).
Last year the 2 Civil War shows in GA I attended were 50% fakes and junk. I was shocked. Covid caused the best of the best to get bought at insane prices and that brought out the fakers in droves.

Having a flashback to my Mauser K98 days. Buyer beware!
Well…thought the pics would be cool anyway. I guess as a primer on what not to buy!

 

[BradBrownBess]

@dave_person - I would be interested in your take on these:
1) Original U.S. Revolutionary War British Short Land Pattern Dublin Castle Brown Bess Flintlock Musket marked to 18th Reg't of Foot

2) Original U.S. Revolutionary War Era British Long Land Pattern Brown Bess Flintlock Musket by Vernon - dated 1761

I know it's really hard to judge an old military musket by photos - but I personally see things that have me scratching my head on both these two - not to mention the supposed 1730 musket.

I'm not calling out or beating up any dealers - just trying to state that I see things that make me nervous and have a lot of questions. Acid Barrel etching, possibly spurious barrel carvings/markings, artificial brass aging, lock refitting, etc.

 

[Artificer]

Hi,
That gun is a restock or fake. First, let's get something straight. The date on the lock is when the lock was made not the musket. The musket may be made or "set up" years later.
dave

An elegant example of Dave's point is another P 1730 Musket linked below. It has the Pattern 1727 Lock that all Pattern 1730 muskets had AND this Lock is actually dated 1728, making it more than likely it was one of the first P1730 muskets made. This as long as the lock did not get buried under newer made P1727 locks that the Tower contracted for and stored while they got ready to make the P1730 muskets.

https://www.bidsquare.com/online-au...pattern-1730-long-land-service-musket-1192390
Gus

 

[Artificer]

As long as we are celebrating P 1730 muskets, here are three more and all have some magnification when you point at the pics.

https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...sh-brown-bess-musket-from-flixton-hall-46674/
and

https://emuseum.history.org/objects...45c7e95e97f4399f2467dfc4688c92bbec8fa1&idx=21
and

https://emuseum.history.org/objects...449fd10cea2df0617adcc690d73a7222924c5e&idx=31
While we are celebrating P1730 Land Pattern Muskets, how about a trivia question? What was the ONLY case a sizeable quantity of BRAND NEW ones were shipped to the American Colonies?

Gus