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Original Brown Bess. Nice pics.

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Gus that one was Bill Ahearn's from Flixton Hall. Its one of the known examples and has been published several times. The referenced Flixton Hall book is a good one by the way - just for an interesting history read if not also for the weapons story and Colonial Williamsburg. Even this one ex Ahearn was an oddball - wood rammer though the Dallways muskets were supposedly all Iron ramrod. I'm not surprised by the slight differences and slight variations at this early stage. I think Ahearn's ex might come close to fetching the 59K with all fees if auctioned today but that might even be a stretch - and it has loads of provenance.
 
Hi,
First, never trust anything IMA publishes. It should always be vetted by a knowledgeable person. Let's consider the Dublin Castle musket in this post. First, read their description. In it they state this pattern short land musket was the standard used throughout the Rev War and post a manufacturing date of 1765. Well right off the bat you know this is bogus stuff. Short land muskets were not the standard arms during the first 3 years of the war. The long land musket was and the first pattern short land issued to infantry was the pattern 1769, which could not have been made in 1765. Next, consider the context of the 18th regiment, the Royal Irish, which was sent to NA in 1767 0r 68, was issued muskets then (all would be pattern 1756 long lands) and did not receive a new issue until 1776. They fought at Lexington, Concord, and were evacuated to Canada in 1776. They did not serve in the Rev War again, so their entire service in the war had to be with long land muskets. Now, look at the lock. What is the earliest pattern musket that lock could be from? It has a hole in the top jaw screw, 2 screws showing behind the flint ****, Flat spur on the ****, and tear drop frizzen spring finial. It is obviously a pattern 1777 lock. It also does not fit the lock mortise very well and is likely a replacement. Furthermore, there are very few pattern 1777 locks marked Dublin Castle known. Very little of the written description can possibly be correct. The Irish registration marks for Londonderry indicate the gun was owned by someone in Ireland during the 1840s.

dave
 
As long as we are celebrating P 1730 muskets, here are three more and all have some magnification when you point at the pics.

https://www.morphyauctions.com/jame...sh-brown-bess-musket-from-flixton-hall-46674/
and

https://emuseum.history.org/objects...45c7e95e97f4399f2467dfc4688c92bbec8fa1&idx=21
and

https://emuseum.history.org/objects...449fd10cea2df0617adcc690d73a7222924c5e&idx=31
While we are celebrating P1730 Land Pattern Muskets, how about a trivia question? What was the ONLY case a sizeable quantity of BRAND NEW ones were shipped to the American Colonies?

Gus
Think I got this one.
There was a Colonel commanding a loyalist force in support of the British down in, I believe, Georgia. Apparently he was a friend of the king and thereby received a shipment of brand new muskets for his unit.
 
Think I got this one.
There was a Colonel commanding a loyalist force in support of the British down in, I believe, Georgia. Apparently he was a friend of the king and thereby received a shipment of brand new muskets for his unit.
James Oglethorpe, originally only one of many trustees of the Colony of Georgia, became its first Governor. Yes, he was commissioned a Colonel by the King and later an acting General, then fully commissioned a General as well for his leadership in the War of Jenkin's Ear against the Spanish Colony of Florida.

As part of the defense force of GA, he went to Scotland and got enough Highlanders to join him as colonists, they made up a company. He got them tartan plaids in Scotland as well as for himself. He also got them equipped with Scottish basket hilt broadswords.

As a friend of the King, he asked for new Muskets for all his forces and got them. He also asked for Infantry Hangers (swords) for the rest of his Non-Highland forces. The Tower didn't have Infantry Hangers in stock, but because of King's Orders, they supplied Naval Cutlasses they had, instead.

However, there is no truth in the rumor that his Cutlass armed Infantry acknowledged orders with "Argh, Argh, Sir." (Yeah, I made up this last sentence. Grin.)

Gus
 
Hi Gus and John,
That was 1737 I believe. At that date the muskets would be updated pattern 1730s possibly with brass nose bands and a few with new stronger trigger guards. Regardless, it was the first documented deployment of the King's musket in NA.

dave
 
Hi Brad,
Ok let's examine the long land musket you linked to. Notice that almost all of the markings on the lock, including government issue and the crown are wiped out. Also notice that there is something very wrong about the way the forward ramrod pipe is inlet and it does not match the work seen on any government issued muskets. Also note the stock swell at the rear pipe is mostly gone. The trigger guard is inlet incredibly shallowly if at all. I believe the gun was restocked. It may be old and of the Rev War period but you cannot be sure. However, it is very unlikely to be what IMA described.

dave
 
Hi Gus and John,
That was 1737 I believe.
Hi Dave,

Yes, and it wasn't until 1739 that the Tower and Dublin Castle finally completed re-arming the entire British Army (Regular Regiments) with the then new P1730 muskets.

At that date the muskets would be updated pattern 1730s possibly with brass nose bands and a few with new stronger trigger guards. Regardless, it was the first documented deployment of the King's musket in NA.

dave

I don't think Bailey mentions when the new/more robust trigger guards began to replace the earlier/more fragile "Dutch" style trigger guards other than to say some were done on the P1740 muskets? The fragility of the Dutch style trigger guards would have been identified by the time the Tower supplied Oglethorpe in 1737, to be sure. Was that upgrade delayed until they finished re-arming the entire British Army in 1739? I don't know.

The winter of 1739-40 was a record breaker in that it was so cold that the rivers and streams in England and Ireland froze solid. That meant there was no water wheel power for the trip hammers and huge grinding wheels to forge and grind gun barrels, just at the time of the urgent need to make new muskets for the War of Jenkin's Ear. So English manufacturing of Land Pattern Muskets stopped for some months and British Ordnance had to get both complete muskets and barrels from the "Dutch." I'm wondering if that's when they began large scale production and collection of the new style more robust trigger guards, as they didn't need water wheels for that production?

The Tower could have provided Nose Bands to Oglethorpe's Muskets, but they didn't do that unless they were paid extra. I don't think Oglethorpe did that? British Ordnance did not supply Nose Bands on the P 1740 or '42 muskets until a few years after they began production of the P1742 and that was often by sending the material for making the Nose Bands along with the Artificers.

Gus
 
Remember a show about that peculiar island across the pond, and some castle has multiple 40' tall stacks of Brown Bess's. Just layer after layer after layer.
The local Lord kept the guns at his house/castle and only issued them for practice or war , the peasants could not be trusted with anything more martial than pitch forks .
 
Hi Brad,
Ok let's examine the long land musket you linked to. Notice that almost all of the markings on the lock, including government issue and the crown are wiped out. Also notice that there is something very wrong about the way the forward ramrod pipe is inlet and it does not match the work seen on any government issued muskets. Also note the stock swell at the rear pipe is mostly gone. The trigger guard is inlet incredibly shallowly if at all. I believe the gun was restocked. It may be old and of the Rev War period but you cannot be sure. However, it is very unlikely to be what IMA described.

dave
Dave they have 3 Bess muskets for sale - all look very, very spurious to me - maybe "mostly original parts" but all are modified and not right in quite a few respects. I used your keen eye and went back and noticed that ramrod pipe inletting and trigger guard inletting. I say for sure a restock in my opinion of possibly spliced (but if going to that extent why not go ahead and get the inletting right - I mean if it was a later restoration etc). Thanks Dave!!!!
 
Bad fake stocking job, lots of mistakes. Also has a British fowling gun buttplate, not a 1st model Bess buttplate. Probably a few original parts with the balance having com from TRS. I like my fake Bess's better. And mine are alot cheaper!
 

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Hi,
That gun is a restock or fake. First, let's get something straight. The date on the lock is when the lock was made not the musket. The musket may be made or "set up" years later. Second, that is no early pattern 1730 Brown Bess stock. I suspect at best it is a colonial restock and at worst an intentionally made fake. Even the proof marks on the barrel look fake and there should be more marks on the barrel, tang, and on the wood.
dave
Wish you knew what you’re talking about.
 
Let’s discuss the 1730-31 Brown Bess, in general. The IMA 1730 is correct. I know, because I personally examined it. If you compare the 1727 to the 1730, they are very different. The 1730-31 is a transitional model and one shouldn’t be too quick to discount an example because it doesn’t fit your spec’s. The stock on the IMA gun is original to the gun. Also, somebody made a comment about why is there rust on the barrel. You need to understand the difference between rust and oxidation. I would also add that in the twelve years that I have been repairing, preserving and restoring Brown Besses, I have never seen two of the same model that are identical.
 
The local Lord kept the guns at his house/castle and only issued them for practice or war , the peasants could not be trusted with anything more martial than pitch forks .
Recall that the Besses at Williamsburg were bought as a lot from an estate in Wales; Welch Fusiliers. There's a book about them.
 
Gus that one was Bill Ahearn's from Flixton Hall. Its one of the known examples and has been published several times. The referenced Flixton Hall book is a good one by the way - just for an interesting history read if not also for the weapons story and Colonial Williamsburg. Even this one ex Ahearn was an oddball - wood rammer though the Dallways muskets were supposedly all Iron ramrod. I'm not surprised by the slight differences and slight variations at this early stage. I think Ahearn's ex might come close to fetching the 59K with all fees if auctioned today but that might even be a stretch - and it has loads of provenance.
I recently found and bought this book, at the small souvenir shop at the "Brandywine battlefield" near Chadds Ford, Pa. (The actual fighting didn't happen on this specific site, but it's near enough to pass as the real thing!) I know little about real Besses, but am not surprised that no two are ever alike: it's a shame that more didn't make it thru a couple centuries!
 
There were famous fakers of Coins, Postage Stamps, etc., back in history; 18th, 19th Centuries. There are books about some of them; even "fakes" are collectible to the odd fan of such items. Then there are pure Counterfeiters, who copy government Money. Some such in the modern era were so good, the gov't. had to re-fresh everything with the super-quality money we see today. (Modern computer copiers add to the equation!) It's not surprising that firearm fakers are rife within the collecting industry. (See: Confederate revolvers!) It's been reported that North Korea and now a country in South America were making copies of our 100's that were about perfect copies; overseas, the US dollar is the default currency in many 3rd world countries, so there may be many such still circulating.
 
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