Original Gibbs-Metford, with issues......

[N8Gunner]

Hello
New to the forum here, and somewhat newish to the black powder hobby. Am happy to join this forum for it's wealth of knowledge and expertise.
After having been a "gun guy" most of my 5+ decades on this earth, I was recently "shown the light" to the joys of black powder by a new friend.
I have been under his tutelage for a bit now, and I have jumped in with both feet .
I have been enjoying my replica Enfield rifle musket, casting bullets and shooting it etc, and am restoring a Tower 1862 Enfield to be a future shooter.
And I am currently working on learning black powder reloading for my pristine M71/84 Mauser and a very good condition M69 Swiss Vetterli.
When offered this Gibbs rifle a few weeks ago , by the widow of an old deceased gunsmith friend ( "Ted", has been gone 10 years now)
I happily bought it.
I do have the original vernier sights, and a "false muzzle" type bullet starter/sizer for it ( the fm is rifled, to match the bore)

At 1st look , the rifle appears attractive, and serviceable.
About 15 years ago ,"Ted" showed me the rifle and explained how he had repaired a bulge in the barrel, using a method that he called
" mono blocking"
There is a distinct seam, the entire circumference of the barrel , located shortly forward of the halfway point.
In looking down the bore, I see no interruption of the rifling.
My plan is to start shooting it , working up from round ball/light loads to a "Proof" load and eventually
if all goes well, shooting sized "postell" type bullets.
I shall be working towards more pictures of it the next few days.
In the meantime, can anyone help me ID the model and vintage ?
(my best guess right now is late 1860's)
it is .457 diameter with a 36" barrel
Any help , comments, observations or advice is appreciated

EG: N8Gunner's 1st Post is Too Long, didn't Read:
Bought neat old rifle, with possible hillbilly repair to barrel.....How old do ya'll think it is ? and should I choot'em or not choot'em ?

 

[Bad Karma]

You have to shoot it! If not, invite me over and I can choot it for you!

 

[hawkeye2]

I have never heard the term mono blocking and have no idea what it entails. Are you sure that is a seam in the barrel and not a line scribed around it?

 

[Bad Karma]

I have never heard that term before either. I wondered if a smith might make a block bored to the outside dimensions of the tapered barrel at the are of the bulge and then hammer the bulge out that way??

 

[ResearchPress]

Nice find! That's an unusual stock for Gibbs-Metford of the time, they are usually pistol grip stocks, rather than with the spur on the trigger guard. METFORD'S PATENT 231 (or is that 251?) is the patent use number, so the 231st barrel. The monograms above the proof marks are William Metford inspection marks. 49 is the bore size. I assume the rest of the marks on the barrel are "George Gibbs, 29 Corn Street, Bristol." (?) I'd estimate c1870. Are you able to confirm how many grooves there are to the rifling?

What is the forend cap made of? Can't quite make it out, they're usually horn. The foresight may be a modern replacement.
If you remove the lock, could we see inside and confirm any makers mark / name. I have reference to three different makers used for Gibbs-Metford locks of this time.

The 'false muzzle' is unusual and may not be original to the rifle. On the British false muzzles there's usually a pin in the top or bottom of the barrel, and the false muzzle is a slip fit over the barrel, with a bayonet fitting to the pin. They are not intended for sizing the bullet to bore, but to protect the muzzle from wear by loading and cleaning rods. Bullets of the time were paper patched and a snug slip fit.

With the characteristic shallow rifling of the Gibbs-Metford it may not perform well with PRB. Given the barrel repair though, starting cautiously is a wise choice. These rifles usually have platinum lined nipples. Check the flash hole on yours does not show excessive signs of wear - it can result in the hammer momentarily lifting, which will affect accuracy and in a worse case the hammer blown right back with possible rifle and shooter damage!

I have information on my web site that may interest:

• Gunmaker, Georges Gibbs, Bristol, England - this section also links to further information on William Metford
• Long Range Muzzle Loading - historical and introductory information for shooting today

David

 

[Rudyard]

Generally Gibbs Metfords are 461 this is a classic ' full match' plain working long range rifle ,Shouldn't be too hard to track number Gibbs shop still in business or was .No idea what the' worked on' bulge is( beyound the obvious ). your rifle appears Thee best of British Target rifles a real 'horse for a course' rifle over a thousand yards. Use only the best black powder Ime sure you will get more info .I just PM ed you I see you did and he knows his stuff.
Regards Rudyard

 

[N8Gunner]

Thank you,Gents !
The "false muzzle" is a slip fit over the crown. It has the 3 protruding dots, that fit into the indents at the crown of the rifle. The rifling in the FM seem to match the rifling at the bore perfectly.
I re measured the postel bullet that I had pushed through the false muzzle, and my calipers show .456 dia. with 6 rifling grooves.
In trying to recall Ted's details ( from 15 years ago) about the repair ( Mono blocking) , he described machining a female recess on one portion, and a male on the other, then threading to join the 2 barrel halves.
In my opinion, that would be one heck of a machining job to align the rifling as well as it appears.
or it would be possible that he rebored the rifle....? What diameter would the stamped "49" indicate with the monograms ?
The bore appears in excellent condition
The rifle is a joy to own and I hold high hopes it is safe and accurate too.

 

[N8Gunner]

You have to shoot it! If not, invite me over and I can choot it for you!

Ya'll always welcome to come shoot !

 

[TFoley]

Nate, while we are all here having a nice chat, you might give consideration to joining with us on northwestfirearms.com - the site is dedicated to shooters of all kinds in the PNW, but we DO like to include people from Idaho and Montana as well. And, obviously, those from somewhat further afield, like me here in Eastern England. Our local BP maven lives in Everson, BTW. Your newfound interest will have a home with us there, for sure.

 

[fleener]

Good for you. Keep us posted on your journey. Perhaps someday you will come to a long range match with your rifle and we will get to see it in person.

Fleener

 

[Okie Hog]

Welcome to the forum. That is a gorgeous rifle.

 

[Bad Karma]

Thank you,Gents !
The "false muzzle" is a slip fit over the crown. It has the 3 protruding dots, that fit into the indents at the crown of the rifle. The rifling in the FM seem to match the rifling at the bore perfectly.
I re measured the postel bullet that I had pushed through the false muzzle, and my calipers show .456 dia. with 6 rifling grooves.
In trying to recall Ted's details ( from 15 years ago) about the repair ( Mono blocking) , he described machining a female recess on one portion, and a male on the other, then threading to join the 2 barrel halves.
In my opinion, that would be one heck of a machining job to align the rifling as well as it appears.
or it would be possible that he rebored the rifle....? What diameter would the stamped "49" indicate with the monograms ?
The bore appears in excellent condition
The rifle is a joy to own and I hold high hopes it is safe and accurate too.

That’s impressive work... beautiful rifle!

 

[ResearchPress]

The "false muzzle" is a slip fit over the crown. It has the 3 protruding dots, that fit into the indents at the crown of the rifle. The rifling in the FM seem to match the rifling at the bore perfectly. . . . . What diameter would the stamped "49" indicate with the monograms ?

Not a pattern false muzzle I have seen on a British match rifle before - but as you say, if not contemporary then a hell of a job to match the rifling. As I said above, the stock configuration with spur trigger guard is also unusal for a Gibbs-Metford, so an interesting rifle. Could we see a picture of the other end of the false muzzle? Most Metford barrels I have seen are 48 bore, although have record of several at 49, either way about .46, which corresponds with your measurements.

David

 

[Kno-ie]

Could this rifle have been sleeved as part of the repair to the bulge? The picture of the muzzle where the two lower holes are, between the holes and bore there appears to be a parting line. This may explain how one cuts a male female threading to bring the two halves together with out a noticeable difference in the rifling. Just asking. It truly is a fine looking rifle.
Kno-ie

 

[N8Gunner]

Having a closer look at the false muzzel, I would thing it is unlikely to be a period item to the gun, what with the roll pins to engage the holes in the crown of the rifle.
Its entirely possible that "Ted" relined the gun after effecting the repair.
Seeing the repair to the stock behind the lock , makes me wonder what damage had occurred to it, to cause both a bulge and a stock break ?
Hmmm. Time shall tell if it is to be a shooter or a wall hanger. I plan on taking it slow and safe
Thanks again for all of the info and discourse on this !

 

[TFoley]

Nate, with all due respect for a very fine piece, and after many many years of looking at, admiring and occasionally shooting Victorian guns of all kinds, the workmanship of the false muzzle in no way matches the rest of the rifle. No self-respecting Victorian gunmaker would allow even the hidden surfaces of an accessory to show such coarse machine marks....and roll-pins, also known as spring-pins, were not invented until 1948 Herman Koell.

 

[Desperate Lee]

You have to shoot it! If not, invite me over and I can choot it for you!

I can come also if invited. I'll shoot damn near anything once just to say i did.
DL

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Dandy Gibby!

 

[TFoley]

Erratum - Line 3 of post #16 - insert ''by' between '1948' and 'Hermann'.

Thank you.

 

[Bad Karma]

I can come also if invited. I'll shoot damn near anything once just to say i did.
DL

I wonder if N8 would get a chance to shoot it if a couple of rascals like us showed up at his range? What do you say N8gunner?