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Original Hawken with peep or tang sight?

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Dino_46

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Hi and a "good shot" to all of you,
I am a German target shooter and I would need some information whether the Hawken brothers ever produced a Hawken rifle with a peep or tang sight.
Thee reason being that the German DSB allows shooting with peep or tang sights, but only if the weapon was originally build with these.
So, if anyone here has some knowledge about this issue or even pictures or documents, please let me know. Thank you in advance, Ralf.
 
in the last 30 Years most muzzleloader target shooter in Germany shot the discipline
a) Perkussionsgewehr 50 m stehend (Perkussionsscheibengewehr). Geschossform beliebig (Regel 7.10 SpO).
with a bad italian or spanish Hawkenreplika with tang sight and there had been no problem with the "Waffenabnahme".
 
yes some had peep sights. the hawken bro. made high end rifles alot of them did not make it out of st.louis. they were bought and used for tarket rifles in that area.
 
Check with Kirrmeister on the forum here. He has been involved with a lot of black powder shooting there in Germany. He might be able to help or advise you. Good luck :thumbsup: .
 
Welcome to the forum Ralf! :hatsoff:

I doubt that there wasn´t a Hawken with that kinda sights.
Those sights were known and used at the same time period the original Hawkens were used.
So there should have been somewhere the example you´re searching for.
But there aren´t many old originals at all that survived till today AFAIK. :(
So it could be difficult to find the proof.

I don´t care much about the DSB :blah: . If they don´t like me and the gun I want to shoot with then they have to get along without me. :2
But I´d find it intresting if anyone could show us a pic or another document with the proof you need. - A little more learned about history then, huh? :wink:
 
This might well,be a case of when the saod Hwaken with peep was made if any were they would likely be at the end of production, some may have had after market sights added if that counts this might be a hard one to proove as to the sights being original to the gun with so many of the Hawken records gons.
 
The Hawken Bros were in business to make money, not to stay PC to someone's opinion 150 years later. If a customer walked in and wanted a peep sight, they got it. As far as the governing authority in Germany, can they prove that of the thousands of rifles made by the Hawkens not one was made with a peep sight?

TC
 
Guten abend, Ralf. I know of photos of two. One is on page 85 of R.L. Wilson's wonderful photo book entitled "Steel Canvas The Art of American Firearms". This is available from Amazon Book sellers for about $20 to $25. This is a standard looking Sam Hawken rifle, but with a checkered grip and semi-pistol grip stock. It has a large diameter (perhaps 1 3/4") disc of a tang-mounted peep sight. The checkering has a panel separated by a ribbon, different from the next one I describe:

"Great Gunmakers for the Early West", Volume III, by James D. Gordon (808 Paseo de la Cuma, Sante Fe, New Mexico 87501, phone (505)982-9667. This three volume set is privately printed by him and costs $295 shipped. Page 391 pictures a rifle marked S. Hawken St. Louis. It has a checkered pistol grip with only one panel and a base for a tang mounted peep sight. Jim Gordon took this photo for the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming. They have a web site and you can call it up and see this same rifle with the tang base. I think the site describes it as a .70 caliber that had been owned by Kit Carson (? not sure from memory).

And there is a third I have personally seen, in St. Louis, maybe 8 to 10 years ago. It was in a National Park Service museum near the arch, forget the name of it. In a glass case. Had a "closed buckhorn" rear sight. It looked just like a buckhorn sight in normal position on the barrel (10 to 12" ahead of the breech) but with the "horns" closed, really more like a 1/4" (hole) flat washer had been soldered in there. I have a photo of it somewhere.
 
This is right, but the problem is that the paragraph about this discipline states that peep sights are only allowed if there was an original weapon built like this and the DSB is getting more and more critical on this issue...
A Schweitzer peep sight for example had to be removed after the Weapon control (since it was not available when the Hawkens were built).
I thought about a Creedmore peep sight, but I need to proof that at least one Hawken was built like that...
It ain't easy..., especially out of Germany, but I seem to get some good info's here...
Thank you to all of you.
Regards,
Ralf
 
Hi,
thank you for the information about these pictures.
I wonder whether somebody here has these books and whether he could scan these images?
It would be a great help!
I will check the website you mentioned...
A lot of German target shooters will be very interested in this information, since your eyes don't get better as you're aging and a peep sight will definately help.
Thanks again,
Ralf
 
the problem is not the peepsight the problem is that there are to much fools at the DSB who think everybody is interested in Luftgewehr Bundesliga and they don´t see that no one is interested in that and they bring the last few blackpowder shooters to move to the SPI or quit. Also the weaponcontroll and the people at the range had absolutly no idea what is right or wrong they often don´t accept orginalrifles they contravene their own rules and so on.
 
Herb said:
... It has a checkered pistol grip with only one panel and a base for a tang mounted peep sight. Jim Gordon took this photo for the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, Wyoming. They have a web site and you can call it up and see this same rifle with the tang base. I think the site describes it as a .70 caliber that had been owned by Kit Carson (? not sure from memory).
Excellent information Herb! :thumbsup: :applause:
The base for the sight is part of the tang and not screwed on the tang.
So this is the proof Ralf needs. It was built like this and not changed later.
 
Ralf, this same subject of Hawken peep sights was discussed on this Percussion Rifles forum starting with post No. 616917 by texan on 09/27/08, subject "Traditional peep sights for a Hawken". I posted there and refreshed my memory on what I said. Do a Search to find it.

I called up www.bbhc.org and could not get the web page to come up. This is the Buffalo Bill Historical Center Museum.

R.L. Wilson has another book, "The Peacemakers, Arms and Adventure in the American West", which I got from Amazon for less than $20. This is a wonderful book which anyone reading this web site would be happy to have. Page 49 has a photo, captioned "Top, special order pistol-grip Sam Hawken rifle, .54 caliber, with peep sight and extra-quality workmanship." (I think it is the two-paneled checkered grip rifle with the big tang disc I mentioned above). Also on same page a full length photo captioned "Sam Hawken-made .70 caliber rifle, the most massive Hawken known. From the collection of Theodore Roosevelt, for many years displayed at his Sagamore Hill, Long Island, estate. According to Roosevelt, the rifle was Kit Carson's. Likely a buffalo killer, as well as a target rifle for bench shooting. Condition and quality of workmanship as fine as those of any known Hawken firearm."

The stock has a checkered wrist and may have only one key holding it to the barrel, with no escutcheon. Ladder tang sight, also rear open sight on barrel. Muzzle turned round for a false muzzle attachment, possibly. Seems to have the rod pipes dove-tailed into the barrel without an underrib. Poured pewter nose cap, curved rear. Lock has a square front. Breech has a snail. Anyone thinking they know what a Hawken looks like, including me, would never know this was a Hawken.

Romeoh- thanks for your input. I visited Bavaria in 1980, Kronach and Schmoelz. My great grandfather was born in Schmoelz.
 
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" can they prove that of the thousands of rifles made by the Hawkens not one was made with a peep sight"


That is not how the game is played, I cannot prove someone did not invent a caplock in 1579 but based on that I cannot claim them to be correct for the period, it sounds like the guys who know how to play are finding some answers the correct way.
 
Hi again,
well, I looked at the Hawken rifle pictures at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, but I couldn't find the rifle you mentioned - may be the view of the rifle is not quite at the correct angle or size to see the mount for the tang sight.
I will check into this again today.
If this doesn't give me the proof I need, I will buy one of the mentioned books.
The Hawkens I own are all .45 Replicas - Two from the Italian manufacturer Investarms - One "Alamo" style with a big patch box and a "Plainsmen", both with new Green Mountain barrels mounted (28" twist).
The third is made by Ardesa in Spain and called "Hawken Match R 20". On this one there is another model called "Hawken Match Creedmore" with a peep sight mounted. This is probably the one you mentioned in the picture, since it has all these nice features. As far as I know, this rifle is only allowed in the 100m dicipline, but I'll check this.
So, to be more precise, I am looking for proof on the "Plainsmen" or "Alamo".
And I will write to the DSB regarding their interpretation of the rules. Peep sight are generally allowed in the 50m discipline, but only with a Sharps or similar? It doesn't make much sense...
Thanks again for your input. I will try to get the pictures mentioned and hopefully convince the DSB that a "Normal" original Hawken with a historical peep sight does exist!
Kind regards,
Ralf
 
Oops, by the way, the DSB states that the shooter has to proof that his weapon is a historical version. So, it is up to me...
The DSB doesn't need to proof the opposite :(.
The russians have a word for this: Tough shittski... :wink:.
Ralf
 
Ok, I finally found the mentioned Hawken.
The tang mount is clearly visible. Let's see what the DSB will respond.
Probably I will have to get a similar stock, similar tang..., since the replicas are not even close to this one.
I'll find out...
Thanks again,
Ralf
 
Herb,

I've been asked by a member of one the clubs that my son and I belong, to find out the approx. date that Hawken style rifles started with peep sights. Reason being, there has been a committee set-up to ascertain whether or not to continue to allow the use of the peep sights at the club's shoots. You sound like you'll know the answer! :thumbsup:

I don't use a peep but my son does (along with several others in the club), with the primitive front blade sight that came stock with the rifle, a Lyman Trade Rifle. He wouldn't let me install the front globe to use with the rear peep. When I look through the peep, I see LOTS of wiggle room and realize that the only way he hits with this set-up is to figure-out where to put the front blade within the rear peep, similar to the M-1 Garrand.

He's away at college and as a result, doesn't get a chance to practice at all. He's won a few competitions, but isn't around enough to make any difference in the final year-end shooting results. I'd hate to have to tell him that he'll have to re-install the original rear sight and go to a match without the ability to even sight-in his rifle prior to the match. In general, I think that today's youth should be encouraged to shoot BP, for they are our future.

Not trying to steal this thread :redface: , so if you think a PM would be better, that's O-K too.

Thanks in advance!

Dave
 
Smokin'.50, thanks for your confidence. I regret to tell you it is misplaced. I ain't as smart as I am handsome, so you see how I struggle through life. No one knows the answer to your questions. In "The Hawken Rifle, Its Place in History", Charles E. Hanson, Jr. (available from the Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, NE, where I visited again in October, and from Track of the Wolf), on page 25 he writes: 'In summary, our research indicates there were no J&S Hawken rifles before 1825 and does not conclusively document any rifle before 1831. It further suggests a minimum production of flintlock rifles. Brigade leaders were favorable toward the new percussion rifles in the very early 1830's but frontier sales reached their peak at the very end of the mountain man period, 1837-1842. Much of the production 1849-50 went in the Gold Rush but this demand was followed by high popularity in the West until 1855. After that time the demand continued to fade gradually for the next ten years. Production figures can only be a wild guess but even a guess is better than a fairy tale. We will hazard a figure of 2,000 J&S guns of all types and 500 S. Hawken guns through 1854. How many more were made after that with the "S.Hawken" stamp is anyone's guess. One thing appears to be fairly conclusive. Hawkens did not make a strong showing in the mountains until relatively late in the game and the visions we all had of hundreds of flint Hawkens is a "will of the wisp." The advertisements and the few surviving shop bills suggest that a very important segment of the Hawken business was with the local people of Missouri and Illinois; not only repairs but also light rifles, shotguns and some of the heavy rifles as well. Even Pierre Chouteau, Jr. bought a fancy rifle for his young son in 1839.'

Likely some rifles were made to order, and the customer might specify what sights he wanted. There are contributors to this panel that know a great deal about the Hawken rifles, far more than I do. I hope they will add to this thread.

Now a couple of comments on sights. I saw in the National Park Service museum in St. Louis, probably the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, about 10 years ago a Hawken rifle in a glass case. It had a closed buckhorn rear sight. It looked as if the horns had been replaced by a 1/4" diameter flat washer. There is no way to know if this was made that way or changed later. That offers some of the ease of sighting of a peep sight, but is not a peep sight. Doctor Gary White of the old Green River Rifle Works in Roosevelt, UT told me he shoots this kind of sight in competitions and had never been challenged on it. Track of the Wolf sells a sight like this, a "fixed sight with peep" and I have used them. Some clubs may specify a distance between the "horns" of a buckhorn sight, thus not allowing this.

About the big peep hole, if that is what you were referencing- I once shot a Model 94 Winchester .30-30 commemorative model of some kind, with an 18" barrel and a tang sight that I could see half of Uintah coutry through. At 100 yards I was able to put 10 shots into 1.75" from rest. So one can shoot well with a large aperature peep sight, or closed buckhorn sight.

You might like to contact James D. Gordon, who published the three volume set "Great Gunmakers for the Early West", for his opininon. He owns original Hawkens and has photographed those at the Museum of the Fur Trade and Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody, WY. Address is 808 Paseo de la Cuma, Sante Fe, NM 87501, phone (505)982-9667.

Again, I ask anyone who knows to pitch in on this.
 
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