Original powder charge for the French An IX pistol?

[Matt85]

Finally got a Pedersoli An IX pistol on the way and it has me curious, what was the original historic powder charge for the cartridges these pistols used? Also, did it use the same .65" diameter ball?

Thanks!
-Matt

 

[Erwan]

For Pedersoli, normally and on average:
- 27 grains 3Fg.
- .675" bullet.
- Patch .007 to .010 thick.
To be finely adjusted for your pistol.

Original (year 1800/1801): .63" round lead bullet (weight: 378 grains), cartridge powder (charge: 116 grains including 15 grains for priming).

 

[Matt85]

27gr of powder for a 400+ grain bullet? What velocity does such a small charge generate?

Interesting info on the original cartridge, that is a surprisingly large charge for a pistol. I suppose I was guessing it would be closer to 80-90 grains. Is there a good online source for this historic cartridge information?

Thank you
-Matt

 

[Erwan]

27gr of powder for a 400+ grain bullet? What velocity does such a small charge generate?

About 755 fps, more than enough for this type of weapon at 15 yards...
It is not a large amount of powder that will give power and accuracy to this type of weapon. You can (with a Pedersoli) have a 35 grains maximum load, but it won't make any difference: the pistol is made for 15 meters and the powder will burn over the grass without any gain of charge or accuracy...
Maybe if you replace the 3Fg with 4Fg, you can get a bit more, but without real interest: the barrel's too short to exploit the charge...

 

[Stantheman86]

I would just make paper cartridges with .648 balls and a 30gr charge of 3f or 2f.

These were horse pistols that were often carried in pairs, they aren't target pistols used with patched round balls

The smoothbore horse pistols are nice, quick loading guns with cartridges and are surprisingly accurate at 25 yards or even 50

 

[Matt85]

I would just make paper cartridges with .648 balls and a 30gr charge of 3f or 2f.

Now that's a light load! After priming the pan you're looking at 20-25 grains of powder under an unpatched 400gr ball that's .04" under bore size. My guess would be a muzzle velocity of 250-300fps. On the bright side you could hang a blanket behind your target to catch and reuse your balls.

@Erwan There is a video of a 1777 pistol (same barrel length and caliber) using 60gr cartridges and the shooter has no problem with powder failing to burn. An 8 inch 69 caliber barrel is going to have a lot more room to burn powder than for example a 8" 50 caliber barrel.

 

[Erwan]

what was the original historic powder charge for the cartridges these pistols used?

Original (year 1800/1801): .63" round lead bullet (weight: 378 grains), cartridge powder (charge: 116 grains including 15 grains for priming).

 

[Stantheman86]

Now that's a light load! After priming the pan you're looking at 20-25 grains of powder under an unpatched 400gr ball that's .04" under bore size. My guess would be a muzzle velocity of 250-300fps. On the bright side you could hang a blanket behind your target to catch and reuse your balls.

@Erwan There is a video of a 1777 pistol (same barrel length and caliber) using 60gr cartridges and the shooter has no problem with powder failing to burn. An 8 inch 69 caliber barrel is going to have a lot more room to burn powder than for example a 8" 50 caliber barrel.

I use a small priming flask to prime

The service charge for a .54 Aston sea service pistol is about 35 grains of "fine pistol" powder, obviously the ball here is bigger but there's not much barrel to burn up something like a 70 grain powder charge , you'll just be blurping out a bunch of unburned powder

Everyone gets Magnum-itis but the intent was to smack the enemy with a huge lead ball at pretty much bayonet charge distance, not make the pistol into a hand musket

Here's a target I shot at maybe 2 yards away with one round from a Walker, with a 55gr charge. Those specks that look like birdshot are totally unburned powder grains blowing into the target. And a lot of them. At a certain point, with blackpowder pistols , you just reach the point where you're trading portability for power. There's nothing you can do to make powder burn faster in a pistol length barrel.

 

[Matt85]

I use a small priming flask to prime

The service charge for a .54 Aston sea service pistol is about 35 grains of "fine pistol" powder, obviously the ball here is bigger but there's not much barrel to burn up something like a 70 grain powder charge , you'll just be blurping out a bunch of unburned powder

Everyone gets Magnum-itis but the intent was to smack the enemy with a huge lead ball at pretty much bayonet charge distance, not make the pistol into a hand musket

Here's a target I shot at maybe 2 yards away with one round from a Walker, with a 55gr charge. Those specks that look like birdshot are totally unburned powder grains blowing into the target. And a lot of them. At a certain point, with blackpowder pistols , you just reach the point where you're trading portability for power. There's nothing you can do to make powder burn faster in a pistol length barrel.

There is a massive difference in powder burning capacity between a 44 caliber barrel and a 69 caliber barrel (I attempted to do the math, but I'm too dumb). The mass of the ball is also significantly different, around 150gr for the 44 caliber ball and 400gr for the 69 caliber ball.

 

[Stantheman86]

There is a massive difference in powder burning capacity between a 44 caliber barrel and a 69 caliber barrel (I attempted to do the math, but I'm too dumb). The mass of the ball is also significantly different, around 150gr for the 44 caliber ball and 400gr for the 69 caliber ball.

There is only one "historical charge ", it is what it is. The original "116 grain" thing is in no way similar to how powder is measured today ..these were historically loaded with a paper cartridge with approximately a .65 ball and 30-40gr of Fine powder , which was about 3f-4f, depending on the era, manufacturer of the cartridge, etc . Anyone who puts 116 grains of any kind of blackpowder into an 8" pistol is honestly a complete dolt who probably shouldn't be playing with this stuff.

Given that a .69 Musket used approx a 100gr charge of Musket powder which was closer to 1F, I don't see what else you're looking to do with this load. It's a pistol , it did pistol stuff like killing people at close range. France kept the same .69 bore for muskets and pistols unlike most of the world which used smaller bores for martial pistols. Just because the pipe is big doesn't mean it needs a huge powder charge.

Please post a video of you touching off a 100gr Musket charge in that thing though. Taylor's is a good source for replacement stocks , as an FYI

 

[Matt85]

The original "116 grain" thing is in no way similar to how powder is measured today ..these were historically loaded with a paper cartridge with approximately a .65 ball and 30-40gr of Fine powder

Source?

Here is a video of a well known gentleman using 60gr cartridges without issue (this would be around 50gr in the barrel). His single target accuracy is bad, but he is trying to shoot a smoothbore pistol with a loose ball at something like 20 meters.

I made this thread to try and gain knowledge of history. My plan was a similar cartridge to the one in the above video. I wasn't planning on using a 100gr cartridge... but I might try it once for fun. If the steel reinforced handle breaks I will be very impressed! (the entire grip has a 1/2" steel spine)

 

[Stantheman86]

.

 

[Stantheman86]

Here is a French M1822 .69 Service Pistol, converted to percussion. It has a ramrod with a powder measure in the tip. It would look to me to hold no more than 30 some odd grains. This is an original pistol and they had these ramrods to make loading without cartridges possible.

It doesn't appear the French put a measure on the ramrod to hold 70 or 80 grains. The service charge was about 30-35 of pistol powder.

Sure, you CAN use more , which is true of anything.

This reminds me of people who refuse to believe that 1860 Colt Armies used a 24gr charge and a conical in their nitrate cartridge. That was the service charge, that's history. It was enough to keep fouling down, keep the gun in the fight longer and stop a man. Use more if you want. I hear from people all the time, and yes, I also see them on YouTube, they want to use their "llok at me I'm Jonny Big B@lz" loads in reproductions of muzzleloading military firearms.......like that "Bearded 11b" clown or whatever his name is, that shoots 150 grains charges in a Zouave repro and when you challenge him he argues with you. I'm like ok have fun blowing skirts out. Be careful who's YouTube stuff you trust. they'll teach you just how to split a stock on a gun too or injure yourself.

You want to put 100 grains through your pistol, that's cool, because I ain't letting anyone do that to any of mine . The thump I feel with a .648 ball and 100 grains of 1F in one of my .69 muskets isn't something I want to see translated into an 8" barrel I'm holding with one hand and a piece of wood, even if far less of it burns

 

[Matt85]

@Stantheman86 I will be trying your cartridge load of 30gr as well as 60gr and maybe 100gr. I'm dubious of what 20gr of powder will do for an unpatched 400gr round ball, but I lose nothing by trying it and I own a very nice chronograph to examine the results. Exploring historic cartridges is just as interesting as the guns!

 

[Stantheman86]

@Stantheman86 I will be trying your cartridge load of 30gr as well as 60gr and maybe 100gr. I'm dubious of what 20gr of powder will do for an unpatched 400gr round ball, but I lose nothing by trying it and I own a very nice chronograph to examine the results. Exploring historic cartridges is just as interesting as the guns!

I'm looking forward to the results

 

[Erwan]

@Stantheman86 I will be trying your cartridge load of 30gr as well as 60gr and maybe 100gr. I'm dubious of what 20gr of powder will do for an unpatched 400gr round ball, but I lose nothing by trying it and I own a very nice chronograph to examine the results. Exploring historic cartridges is just as interesting as the guns!

Here is a French M1822 .69 Service Pistol, converted to percussion. It has a ramrod with a powder measure in the tip. It would look to me to hold no more than 30 some odd grains. This is an original pistol and they had these ramrods to make loading without cartridges possible.

Hello,
It is a model 1822-T/Tbis of caliber 17.6mm (T) and 17.7mm (Tbis).
Derived from the pistol model 1822, the model 1822T incorporates in its composition a major technological advance for the time, the setting of fire by capsule also called the setting of fire with percussion. This transformation takes place in the middle of the 19th century and radically modifies the silhouette of the handguns used then. The modified weapon does not change the name, one is satisfied to affix a T following the model, which gives in the present case pistol model 1822T for transformed.
This weapon used the same cartridge as the 1822-T-Tbis rifle.
The rifle cartridge had to be "bled" (which was forbidden on the other regulation weapons) and the surplus of powder for the gun was poured in the cup of the loading rod: the cup does not contain the load of the gun but the surplus of the rifle cartridge so that the load is adapted to the gun.
So the amount of powder equivalent to the cup was removed from the rifle cartridge.
The initial velocity was ~180 m/s or about 590 fps.
- Charge of 46.30 grains (1822-T).
- Charge of 31.00 grains (1822-Tbis).

Caliber:
17.6 mm (mle 1822T) 17.7 mm (mle 1822T bis)

Ammunition:
Spherical lead bullet of 17 mm (mle 1842) then of 16,7 mm (mle 1848), encartouchée powder (charge: 46.3 grains) for the 1822T.
Oblong lead bullet of 17 mm (mle 1857) then of 17,2 mm (mle 1863), cartridge powder (charge : 31 grains) for the 1822T bis.

We don't always know American weapons well BUT we know OURweapons well enough....

Pistol An IX :
Caliber: 17,1 mm
Ammunition: round lead bullet of 15,98 mm (weight: 24,50 g), encartouchée powder (load: 116 including 15 grains for the initiation)...

 

[Stantheman86]

Hello,
It is a model 1822-T/Tbis of caliber 17.6mm (T) and 17.7mm (Tbis).
Derived from the pistol model 1822, the model 1822T incorporates in its composition a major technological advance for the time, the setting of fire by capsule also called the setting of fire with percussion. This transformation takes place in the middle of the 19th century and radically modifies the silhouette of the handguns used then. The modified weapon does not change the name, one is satisfied to affix a T following the model, which gives in the present case pistol model 1822T for transformed.
This weapon used the same cartridge as the 1822-T-Tbis rifle.
The rifle cartridge had to be "bled" (which was forbidden on the other regulation weapons) and the surplus of powder for the gun was poured in the cup of the loading rod: the cup does not contain the load of the gun but the surplus of the rifle cartridge so that the load is adapted to the gun.
So the amount of powder equivalent to the cup was removed from the rifle cartridge.
The initial velocity was ~180 m/s or about 590 fps.
- Charge of 46.30 grains (1822-T).
- Charge of 31.00 grains (1822-Tbis).

Caliber:
17.6 mm (mle 1822T) 17.7 mm (mle 1822T bis)

Ammunition:
Spherical lead bullet of 17 mm (mle 1842) then of 16,7 mm (mle 1848), encartouchée powder (charge: 46.3 grains) for the 1822T.
Oblong lead bullet of 17 mm (mle 1857) then of 17,2 mm (mle 1863), cartridge powder (charge : 31 grains) for the 1822T bis.

We don't always know American weapons well BUT we know OURweapons well enough....

Pistol An IX :
Caliber: 17,1 mm
Ammunition: round lead bullet of 15,98 mm (weight: 24,50 g), encartouchée powder (load: 116 including 15 grains for the initiation)...


View attachment 199336

Ok so that makes it clear as mud

They wanted guys to measure powder out of a musket cartridge to load into the pistol by using a cup on the ramrod .....

So now that we're clear that the 1822-T takes 46 grains but the Tbis takes 31 .....

I don't know, basically the OP can just pick whatever charge makes his twigs and berries warm and fuzzy and go shoot his Italian- French repro flintlock. 69 because no answer is gonna satisfy that guy anyway until he comes back with chrono data from his 70gr load proving it's the best plus YouTube guy says 60 so history goes out the window because people want "ego loads"

 

[Erwan]

Wep, it's so, we have the same guys in Absurdistan...

Just one more word that can maybe serve: the cup of the ramrod is only to measure the powder from the musket cartridge, not the charge. You don't use it in the pistol.
I suppose that the men of the time took it for priming or something like that...

 

[Matt85]

I don't know, basically the OP can just pick whatever charge makes his twigs and berries warm and fuzzy and go shoot his Italian- French repro flintlock. 69 because no answer is gonna satisfy that guy anyway until he comes back with chrono data from his 70gr load proving it's the best plus YouTube guy says 60 so history goes out the window because people want "ego loads"

@Stantheman86 It's a shame that you need to insult people you disagree with rather than converse as an adult. I have been civil and respectful despite a differing of opinion, thus doing nothing deserving of insult. You will now be put on "ignore" because I am far too old to be dealing with other people's children.

@Erwan Thank you for the very interesting information. I have never heard of that method for downloading a cartridge before.

I am not a target shooter and do not care for the "most accurate load". What I find most enjoyable is to shoot guns with their historic loads in order to experience what the original shooters experienced. An example: as a recent project I remanufactured some 6.5x52 cartridges dated "Nov 1940", in order to experience cupronickel jacketed bullets over cordite charges in an original excellent condition rifle.

 

[Stantheman86]

@Stantheman86 It's a shame you're such a child that you need to insult people rather than converse as an adult. I have been civil and respectful despite a differing of opinion, thus doing nothing deserving of insult. You will now be put on "ignore" because I am far too old to be dealing with other people's children.

@Erwan Thank you for the very interesting information. I have never heard of that method for downloading a cartridge before.

I am not a target shooter and do not care for the "most accurate load". What I find most enjoyable is to shoot guns with their historic loads in order to experience what the original shooters experienced. An example: as a recent project I remanufactured some 6.5x52 cartridges dated "Nov 1940" to experience cupronickel jacketed bullets over cordite charges in an original excellent condition rifle.

Good please ignore me, it filters out more of the noise in here

You were oppositional and argumentative from the start that's why everyone else stopped trying to help you. Self Recognition is the first key to recovery